Interesting article on the current state of Cabernet Sauvignon and just how it has changed (all for the worse according to the author) over the past 15-20 years.
The Collapse of Cabernet
- Thread starter ibglowin
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Mike,
I think you need to contact the author and have him send you one of those 1970 cabs from his cellar, so you can determine if you agree with him or not. You'll need a second opinion and I'm only a few hours up the road.
Actually, I have noticed lately that some cabs seem to have a slight sweetness to them.
Barefoot's cab is one of the most popular (inexpensive) cabs in the world, but I don't think it tastes much like a cab to me. I always thought of a cab as being a wine that if you are not used to the fullness of a big wine, you wouldn't want to start off with a nice cab.
I think you need to contact the author and have him send you one of those 1970 cabs from his cellar, so you can determine if you agree with him or not. You'll need a second opinion and I'm only a few hours up the road.
Actually, I have noticed lately that some cabs seem to have a slight sweetness to them.
Barefoot's cab is one of the most popular (inexpensive) cabs in the world, but I don't think it tastes much like a cab to me. I always thought of a cab as being a wine that if you are not used to the fullness of a big wine, you wouldn't want to start off with a nice cab.
Yea,
Everything is being made to drink now (cellar what's that) and not necessarily with food.....
Everything is being made to drink now (cellar what's that) and not necessarily with food.....
JimCook
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It could be argued that the scale of economics and the brute force of consumerism will shape industries more than the prevailing nature of the industries themselves. So we see an expanding interest in wine, especially that which is on the lower end of the pricing structure, combined with the utter fact that most people engaging into the experience are at a novice level of understanding/appreciation. The descriptor "this tastes good/bad" in place of specific flavors that are tasted from a food or wine is one that a child would use, and yet it is one of the most common statements I overhear when attending a wine tasting event.
I have no reason to suspect that anything will change going forward - the fast-food/cellphone generations growing up into tomorrow's wine drinkers are spoiled with instant gratification. The problem goes much deeper than the wine industry and it's arguably a serious flaw developing in the future foundation of our nation.
In Bill Buford's book Heat, he mentions that prosciutto used to be made by curing meat for a period of time somewhere around two years. As modern grocery stores provided a faster distribution method and more and more modern consumers wanted the product, eventually the curing time dropped to keep up with demand. It dropped to a point where some prosciutto was only aged a matter of a handful of months. Consuming this prosciutto would be like drinking a wine young. Is it wrong - sure, on several levels. Will it happen anyway - absolutely, and the demand is there so you can be people will fill it in order to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.
Perhaps we will see more of a differentiation over time with 'art' versus 'reality,' but I wouldn't hold your breath were I you. As in any market, a large solid base of standard and sub-standard products will perhaps support a small number of high grade products which will consequently fetch a fearsome price.
Robert Ringer, in his book Winning through Intimidation, mentions that above all the Law of Reality must be accepted. Paraphased, it states that life is not what we want it to be, but rather simply what is. I think that this evolution of wine is yet another 'what is' factor.
- Jim
I have no reason to suspect that anything will change going forward - the fast-food/cellphone generations growing up into tomorrow's wine drinkers are spoiled with instant gratification. The problem goes much deeper than the wine industry and it's arguably a serious flaw developing in the future foundation of our nation.
In Bill Buford's book Heat, he mentions that prosciutto used to be made by curing meat for a period of time somewhere around two years. As modern grocery stores provided a faster distribution method and more and more modern consumers wanted the product, eventually the curing time dropped to keep up with demand. It dropped to a point where some prosciutto was only aged a matter of a handful of months. Consuming this prosciutto would be like drinking a wine young. Is it wrong - sure, on several levels. Will it happen anyway - absolutely, and the demand is there so you can be people will fill it in order to attempt to gain a competitive advantage.
Perhaps we will see more of a differentiation over time with 'art' versus 'reality,' but I wouldn't hold your breath were I you. As in any market, a large solid base of standard and sub-standard products will perhaps support a small number of high grade products which will consequently fetch a fearsome price.
Robert Ringer, in his book Winning through Intimidation, mentions that above all the Law of Reality must be accepted. Paraphased, it states that life is not what we want it to be, but rather simply what is. I think that this evolution of wine is yet another 'what is' factor.
- Jim
ibglowin said:Yea,
Everything is being made to drink now (cellar what's that) and not necessarily with food.....
It's all about marketing. That's what sells, so that's what they make.
I am a member of the WJSWine club. We get 12 bottles of reds, with tasting notes, about every quarter. The wines are great, but almost all of them say to drink them within 2 years. These wines are not just California wines. Of course they are not all cabs, but none of the cabs say to cellar more than one or two years.
For awhile now I have been wanting to have a unique styled wine tasting party with some of our couple friends. Unique in that each person would have two glasses; one glass, for example, would have a cab/sav, the other, say, a shiraz.
The idea would be to taste one; next taste the other, then back to the first, and so on. The aim would be to try to pinpoint the actual difference in taste between a cab and a shiraz. Do the same comparison between maybe a sav blanc and a viognier. I'm sure you get my drift.
Anyway, as I have thought about it over the last month or two, I'm not sure what cab I could use as a reference for a "true" cab. What DOES a true cab taste like anymore?
Probably closer to that '99 Rodney Strong you had the other night!
DancerMan said:
Ahhhh..... Don't get to discourged yet guys.
Go to Napa.... Sure there are a lot of wineries that are to modern, But there are PLENTY that will knock your boots off!!!
Tradition still lives on, There is wineries of tomorrow that will still hold true. We have Appleman and Al Fuchino that are now commercial, they are wineries of tomorrow, and I guarenteethey will stay authentic. Yes, some winerieswill change for the worse.... But it will just make the good ones appear even better.
Go to Napa.... Sure there are a lot of wineries that are to modern, But there are PLENTY that will knock your boots off!!!
Tradition still lives on, There is wineries of tomorrow that will still hold true. We have Appleman and Al Fuchino that are now commercial, they are wineries of tomorrow, and I guarenteethey will stay authentic. Yes, some winerieswill change for the worse.... But it will just make the good ones appear even better.
Bartman
Senior Member
Come on, you guys - you're well on your way to turning into that most scorned of wine drinkers - the "Wine Snob". Can you hear yourself: "What DOES a true cab taste like anymore?" I can almost hear your "sniff" and "tsk, tsk" afterwards. Pretty soon I'll read something like, "Back in 19__, when I was a lot younger, we knew a thing or two about wine, and these newer wineries just don't make 'em like they used to..." The country bumpkins and hicks among us don't relate very well to those attitudes about wine - so you'll have to lay off the Napa Valley references - Missouri River Valley and Finger Lakes references are ok, though...
But seriously, I can think of several reasons why this question should not even arise here:
1) We're home winemakers - we make our own because we don't want to buy commercially-made products (for various reasons, including price but also taste)
2) What commercial wineries produce for retail should not be our concern since we are not trying to "compete" with commercial products, but to replace with those wines something different and hopefully better (how many times has it been said on this forum that you should experiment with the flavors/additives/modifications that you personally like, rather than what is typical or recommended?)
3) Our perception of a "Real" cab (if we could even agree on that point) is not what was 20 years ago, and that was not the same as 40 years ago, because products and markets change over time. I think we can all agree that the cabernet sauvignon grape varietal is the same genetically, but inevitably grown under different conditions in different locations as various factors cause that to change (land prices, environment, agricultural methods/chemicals/organics, etc.). from year to year let alone decade to decade.
4) BUT the biggest point is the fact that California wineries all but invented the concept of a single varietal wine some 60-90 years ago, so before then, almost no consumers knew or cared what varietals were in the bottle - they just knew if it was a good blend of wine or not. Comparing wines was less precise and different wines were simply not as comparable in a tasting setting, but that was why vintage years mattered and winemakers' knowledge and experience with HIS vineyards (of different varietals) was critical. Nowadays, wineries just buy grapes from any old place, ferment whatever crap they got in bulk at a cheap price, bottle it and sell it - the "Backstories" and special techniques employed/described with great solemnity (modern methods of testing, filtering, "organic growing methods", etc.) are just melodramatic propaganda for the purposes of marketing/selling swill with a high price, in my very humble opinion.
Do not lament that the flavor of a wine you like has changed and can't seem to be re-created - that is part of the allure and the unattainable ideal that makes wine so spectacular and engrossing. I recall a wine I had some 15-17 years ago when I was still in my teens that was so silky and smooth, it was like nothing I had ever drank before or have since - I still remember it as the perfect texture of any food or drink, but have not come close to tasting it again. Even though I doubt I will ever find that "perfection in a bottle" again (I think it was a Barolo), I'm still hunting for that experience again...
But seriously, I can think of several reasons why this question should not even arise here:
1) We're home winemakers - we make our own because we don't want to buy commercially-made products (for various reasons, including price but also taste)
2) What commercial wineries produce for retail should not be our concern since we are not trying to "compete" with commercial products, but to replace with those wines something different and hopefully better (how many times has it been said on this forum that you should experiment with the flavors/additives/modifications that you personally like, rather than what is typical or recommended?)
3) Our perception of a "Real" cab (if we could even agree on that point) is not what was 20 years ago, and that was not the same as 40 years ago, because products and markets change over time. I think we can all agree that the cabernet sauvignon grape varietal is the same genetically, but inevitably grown under different conditions in different locations as various factors cause that to change (land prices, environment, agricultural methods/chemicals/organics, etc.). from year to year let alone decade to decade.
4) BUT the biggest point is the fact that California wineries all but invented the concept of a single varietal wine some 60-90 years ago, so before then, almost no consumers knew or cared what varietals were in the bottle - they just knew if it was a good blend of wine or not. Comparing wines was less precise and different wines were simply not as comparable in a tasting setting, but that was why vintage years mattered and winemakers' knowledge and experience with HIS vineyards (of different varietals) was critical. Nowadays, wineries just buy grapes from any old place, ferment whatever crap they got in bulk at a cheap price, bottle it and sell it - the "Backstories" and special techniques employed/described with great solemnity (modern methods of testing, filtering, "organic growing methods", etc.) are just melodramatic propaganda for the purposes of marketing/selling swill with a high price, in my very humble opinion.
Do not lament that the flavor of a wine you like has changed and can't seem to be re-created - that is part of the allure and the unattainable ideal that makes wine so spectacular and engrossing. I recall a wine I had some 15-17 years ago when I was still in my teens that was so silky and smooth, it was like nothing I had ever drank before or have since - I still remember it as the perfect texture of any food or drink, but have not come close to tasting it again. Even though I doubt I will ever find that "perfection in a bottle" again (I think it was a Barolo), I'm still hunting for that experience again...
"Do not lament that the flavor of a wine you like has changed and can't
seem to be re-created - that is part of the allure and the unattainable
ideal that makes wine so spectacular and engrossing. I recall a wine I
had some 15-17 years ago when I was still in my teens that was so silky
and smooth, it was like nothing I had ever drank before or have since - I
still remember it as the perfect texture of any food or drink, but have
not come close to tasting it again. Even though I doubt I will ever
find that "perfection in a bottle" again (I think it was a Barolo), I'm
still hunting for that experience again..."
I agree. I had a bottle of Six Grape Port 20 years ago. It was jammy and wonderful and each sip seemed to reveal yet another layer of flavor. I have been buying Six Grape Port ever since, searching for a repeat of that bottle with no luck. I have come to think that perhaps it was not only the wine but the circumstance of the evening that made that bottle so good. Good friends, snowy night, warm fire, great conversation, a desire for the evening to never end, and that bottle slowly circling the room. A magic time that, I think, aided that bottle of port.
As far as Cabernet Sauvignon is concerned, I have, for over 10 years, used Rodney Strong Cabernet Sauvignon as our house wine. I have bought cases and cases of that wine and I have not noticed any change in their product. I suppose that as new producers come on line, their products focus on "early drinkability." Some folks may like that. But I don't despair. I remember that I started out drinking Lancers and I thought it was wonderful. One evening I had a bottle of Chateauneuf du Pape. I thought something was wrong with the wine. My friend, much more experienced in the ways of wine, explained the tastes to me and my wine tastes began to change. I think the same thing will occur with the folks who like early drinking Cabernets. They will develop a liking for wine and then, one day, they will taste the silky smoothness of an properly aged Cabernet and they will be as astonished. If a thing is good and true, it is good and true forever.
<h3><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teauneuf-du-Pape" target="_blank">
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<h3><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teauneuf-du-Pape" target="_blank">
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seem to be re-created - that is part of the allure and the unattainable
ideal that makes wine so spectacular and engrossing. I recall a wine I
had some 15-17 years ago when I was still in my teens that was so silky
and smooth, it was like nothing I had ever drank before or have since - I
still remember it as the perfect texture of any food or drink, but have
not come close to tasting it again. Even though I doubt I will ever
find that "perfection in a bottle" again (I think it was a Barolo), I'm
still hunting for that experience again..."
I agree. I had a bottle of Six Grape Port 20 years ago. It was jammy and wonderful and each sip seemed to reveal yet another layer of flavor. I have been buying Six Grape Port ever since, searching for a repeat of that bottle with no luck. I have come to think that perhaps it was not only the wine but the circumstance of the evening that made that bottle so good. Good friends, snowy night, warm fire, great conversation, a desire for the evening to never end, and that bottle slowly circling the room. A magic time that, I think, aided that bottle of port.
As far as Cabernet Sauvignon is concerned, I have, for over 10 years, used Rodney Strong Cabernet Sauvignon as our house wine. I have bought cases and cases of that wine and I have not noticed any change in their product. I suppose that as new producers come on line, their products focus on "early drinkability." Some folks may like that. But I don't despair. I remember that I started out drinking Lancers and I thought it was wonderful. One evening I had a bottle of Chateauneuf du Pape. I thought something was wrong with the wine. My friend, much more experienced in the ways of wine, explained the tastes to me and my wine tastes began to change. I think the same thing will occur with the folks who like early drinking Cabernets. They will develop a liking for wine and then, one day, they will taste the silky smoothness of an properly aged Cabernet and they will be as astonished. If a thing is good and true, it is good and true forever.
<h3><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teauneuf-du-Pape" target="_blank">
</a></h3>
<h3><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teauneuf-du-Pape" target="_blank">
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Mike,
That Rodney Strong was a replacement for the bad bottle of barolo I had purchased last month.
When I went back to let the store know the barolo was bad, the owner gave me another bottle of barolo, along with the Rodney Strong. He said to drink the RS if the second bottle of barolo was also bad. If it was not bad, I was to bring the RS back.
Well, the 2nd barolo was as bad as the first, so we drank the RS. That was some bottle of wine! Nothing like some good age on top of an already good wine.
That Rodney Strong was a replacement for the bad bottle of barolo I had purchased last month.
When I went back to let the store know the barolo was bad, the owner gave me another bottle of barolo, along with the Rodney Strong. He said to drink the RS if the second bottle of barolo was also bad. If it was not bad, I was to bring the RS back.
Well, the 2nd barolo was as bad as the first, so we drank the RS. That was some bottle of wine! Nothing like some good age on top of an already good wine.
ArdenS
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Richard, another possibility on that tasting which sounds fascinating to me is what is, I think, called a vertical tasting. That is, taste one varietal, preferably from the same winery or region, over several years. I'm sure it would/could get expensive, but would be fascinating none-the-less.
Arden
Arden
Arden said:
Last summer, for my wine club, I did a vertical tasting of Beaulieu Vineyard Private Reserve using the 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006 vintages. It was an interesting tasting for several reasons. We all noted the similarities in the wines and the improvements that came to the wines through aging. We also noted that in 2002 and 2004 the wines seemed somewhat "lighter" than in other years. The winery notes that those years were wetter rainfall years. Same vines, same ground, different results. As I said, interesting.
Rodney Strong as well as Louis M. Martini are two reasonably priced Cabs (everyday drinkers) that I think have not fallen for the shift towards fruit bomb (la bomba grande) that most other Cabernets have seemingly drifted towards in the past 10 years or so.
I personally don't think about a Cabernet Sauvignon as a sipping wine with friends. Its usually something I want to wash down a hunk o meat with as I love the reaction of the high acidity and tannins in the wine with the piece of mammal flesh I just finished.....
I personally don't think about a Cabernet Sauvignon as a sipping wine with friends. Its usually something I want to wash down a hunk o meat with as I love the reaction of the high acidity and tannins in the wine with the piece of mammal flesh I just finished.....
Arden,
That would be interesting and yes, it would be expensive, too. The more I think about it, that would be fun because you know they are going to be different.
Getting the different years would not be easy, at least at my local store. Seems they don't stock multiple years of the same wine, or if they do, I just haven't noticed. You would probably have to order it on line.
I enjoy wine tastings. A group of us have our own blind tasting about every six months. It is interesting how easy it is to "get it wrong", even though one of us drinks his share of wine. About the time I think I know the taste difference between a cab and a shiraz, I get to laugh at myself. There are so many different combinations of grapes they blend into that other 25% that one never knows what to expect
I do want to get to a place where I can taste the difference. Does that make me a wine snob? I hope not!
We have a local liquor store that has multiple wine tastings every weekend. We try to go to one regularly. Sometimes the theme is something like "Italian wines". Last week it was wines from Sommet Winery in Columbia Valley. The price of each of the wines was $10 and Sommet makes some pretty darn good wines. Next Saturday it will be wine from a specific Napa winery.
I have never been that interested in white wines (a red wine snob???), especially the sweet ones, but lately I have been trying to learn more about them and to better appreciate "the other side".
That would be interesting and yes, it would be expensive, too. The more I think about it, that would be fun because you know they are going to be different.
Getting the different years would not be easy, at least at my local store. Seems they don't stock multiple years of the same wine, or if they do, I just haven't noticed. You would probably have to order it on line.
I enjoy wine tastings. A group of us have our own blind tasting about every six months. It is interesting how easy it is to "get it wrong", even though one of us drinks his share of wine. About the time I think I know the taste difference between a cab and a shiraz, I get to laugh at myself. There are so many different combinations of grapes they blend into that other 25% that one never knows what to expect
I do want to get to a place where I can taste the difference. Does that make me a wine snob? I hope not!
We have a local liquor store that has multiple wine tastings every weekend. We try to go to one regularly. Sometimes the theme is something like "Italian wines". Last week it was wines from Sommet Winery in Columbia Valley. The price of each of the wines was $10 and Sommet makes some pretty darn good wines. Next Saturday it will be wine from a specific Napa winery.
I have never been that interested in white wines (a red wine snob???), especially the sweet ones, but lately I have been trying to learn more about them and to better appreciate "the other side".
Mike,
We don't have to have it with a meal, it just has to be 5 o'clock... well, close at least. Wine sure does go well with a good meal, though.
My wife and I come home and pour each a glass of typically a red. We finish that glass with our meal, then pour another to enjoy afterward.
As I wrote to Arden, this is why I want to start appreciating whites more. If it is not with the meal, it would be nice to spread it around a little more. I do admit I will have a challenge appreciating the sweet ones... it just may not ever happen. However, I did enjoy the Sommet Winery riesling last weekend. It was less sweet than other reislings I have had. We actually bought a bottle of it.
I do like Rodney Strong and Louis Martini. The LM was the favorite at the blind tasting I spoke of earlier. However, it is not often that I get to drink a 10 year old RS reserve. I can't tell you how special that bottle was; I can still taste it.
We don't have to have it with a meal, it just has to be 5 o'clock... well, close at least. Wine sure does go well with a good meal, though.
My wife and I come home and pour each a glass of typically a red. We finish that glass with our meal, then pour another to enjoy afterward.
As I wrote to Arden, this is why I want to start appreciating whites more. If it is not with the meal, it would be nice to spread it around a little more. I do admit I will have a challenge appreciating the sweet ones... it just may not ever happen. However, I did enjoy the Sommet Winery riesling last weekend. It was less sweet than other reislings I have had. We actually bought a bottle of it.
I do like Rodney Strong and Louis Martini. The LM was the favorite at the blind tasting I spoke of earlier. However, it is not often that I get to drink a 10 year old RS reserve. I can't tell you how special that bottle was; I can still taste it.
JimCook
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Remember when California Chardonnay was all oak & butter? It spawned a 'revolt' movement stating ABC (Anything But Chardonnay).
At this point there is now a spread of different types of Chardonnay available from California, from light Chablis-style to crisp to some that have the oak and butter volume knobs turned up.
One thing we can be certain of is that the wines will continue to evolve as techniques are refined and the demand of the customer shifts.
- Jim
At this point there is now a spread of different types of Chardonnay available from California, from light Chablis-style to crisp to some that have the oak and butter volume knobs turned up.
One thing we can be certain of is that the wines will continue to evolve as techniques are refined and the demand of the customer shifts.
- Jim
Yep,
The only thing constant is change........
The only thing constant is change........
Bartman
Senior Member
Even though Change is constant, and we all strive to defy that fact of life, don't let yourself get stuck in your ways. It's a fine line between "holding the line" on standards and expectations of what a given varietal "should" taste like, and getting sucked into "this isn't the way it was back in the old days!"
Got to keep trying new things and experiencing new flavors, because, like a particularly great vintage, what we all know and love right now will change and evolve - the question remaining is, will we change and evolve to appreciate that new "vintage" and its nuances?
Got to keep trying new things and experiencing new flavors, because, like a particularly great vintage, what we all know and love right now will change and evolve - the question remaining is, will we change and evolve to appreciate that new "vintage" and its nuances?
Hi all,
I'm a little late to this party... But, here is may take on it... They are making what is selling!!! Big, Big, Big, fruit bombs... lots and lots of oak!!! I also thank that the new wine drinkers like it and they don't know the diffrence!! I use to drink BV cabs... loved them, nothing better... now I drink more old world stuff... brunello, barolo,hermitage,tuscan,super tuscan and amarone... I also like some of the new world blends...
But, with that said, you can always find something you like!! Sostay true to yourself and drink what you like...
My only concern is I hope I can make what I like!!!!! All of my wine still to young to drink, but getting older by the day. May 17, 2010 is nearly here... that will be my first taste
I'm a little late to this party... But, here is may take on it... They are making what is selling!!! Big, Big, Big, fruit bombs... lots and lots of oak!!! I also thank that the new wine drinkers like it and they don't know the diffrence!! I use to drink BV cabs... loved them, nothing better... now I drink more old world stuff... brunello, barolo,hermitage,tuscan,super tuscan and amarone... I also like some of the new world blends...
But, with that said, you can always find something you like!! Sostay true to yourself and drink what you like...
My only concern is I hope I can make what I like!!!!! All of my wine still to young to drink, but getting older by the day. May 17, 2010 is nearly here... that will be my first taste
