Cellar Craft Problem with Reds longevity

[Sudz]

I've been making wines for about 3 years now. Mostly reds. Basically, I've never been able to get a red beyond six months. No problems with the whites but admittedly they're gone by six months. I've only had a couple of reds which made it long enough to be good before they crashed.

The reds start off lookin' good and tasting good with exception of the expected green metallic bite. At about 3 months they show anticipated improvement with a reduction of the green bite. But then things start to go south. They all crash with the same unpleasant taste which I'll describe as pruny or pungent. Poor description but that's the best I can do. This taste is detectable at 3-4 months. By 6-7 months it's undrinkable. Some have been quite good at 6 months but its not long before they crash.

I initially suspected something amiss with my sanitation. I've looked closely and cannot find issue with this. I've been brewing beer for about 4 years without ever catching an infection so I must be doing something right with sanitation. The strange thing is my whites never have the slightest hint of this taste even at 6 months.

I'm anal about oxidation and none of these wines have shown any degradation in color, they all look great. I'm assuming oxidation would show up in poor color (browing).

I vacuum degass and have not had any issue with degassing of which I am aware.

I did find my Kmeta was old and virtually all of the additions I was making for longterm aging were useless. Most of these wines were below 10ppm at 6 months so I thought ah! this is the problem.

However, I'm making some good kits (CC Red Mountain Showcase) and I know I'm adding their Kmeta after fermentation. That should keep things in great shape for about 6 months even if my additional Kmeta was worthless. However, they're crashing.

I'm pulling my hair out on this one....

Any ideas guys?

 

[ibglowin]

A Red Mountain Cab will not be drinkable before 12 mo minimum. 18 mo is better. Even without a proper SO2 addition this wine should be fine for at least 18-24 mo before you might see a color change. Let them age properly, then open one up at a minimum of 12 mo. and report back.

 

[Wade E]

I agree, your wines meaning reds arent even drinkable for 8 months and these will go through many changes during this time. Are you testing the sulfite levels with something and if bilk aging you should be adding another 1/8 - 1/4 tsp of sulfite at the 4 month mark.

 

[Rocky]

"They all crash with the same unpleasant taste which I'll describe as pruny or pungent."

Sudz, this sounds like oxidation to me. What type and size of corks are you using? How is the wine stored, i.e. temperature and humidity?

 

[Sudz]

"They all crash with the same unpleasant taste which I'll describe as pruny or pungent."

Sudz, this sounds like oxidation to me. What type and size of corks are you using? How is the wine stored, i.e. temperature and humidity?

I've used both synthetic and natural corks from various suppliers. The wines are stored on their side in a conventional rack. I'm limited to a storage temp of 74-76*F. It's fairly stable but admittedly not as low as I would prefer. Humidity is what it is which should be somewhere around 20 - 30%. I've never observed any leakage, or coloration up high on the cork which suggest a reasonable seal was present. All bottles of a batch are fairly consistent with the pungent taste. I did have an odd bottle on one occasion which was notably better than the bulk of the lot but generally they are all equally bad.

Initially I was topping off with CO2 but changed to argon since I have it available. I layer racking vessels with CO2 before transferring the wine. It has occurred to me that I have not been filtering the gasses I use which I guess could be a source of contamination?

Oxidation has been high on my suspect list but I can't seem to find a smoking gun. Is there some method for determining the presence of oxidation other than color?

 

[Rocky]

Sudz, the fact that you had a good bottle in the batch suggests that the problem is not in your production system and is occuring in the bottles. The temperature that you store the wine should not be a problem though a little on the high side. The good thing is that it is consistent. The humidity is well below the "ideal" which is 75% RH, but you say that it occurs with both natural and synthetic corks. If you only used natural corks (which tend to dry out), I would be more concerned because synthetic corks would be less affected by low humidity.

Do you sulfite your bottles before filling? How are the corks stored before you use them? How close to the time you are filling the bottles were they last washed with hot water and some type of detergent? I clean my bottles when I de-label them and I clean them again just before bottling. Are you using a #9 x 1.75" cork? I would recommend these measures if you are not now doing so.

It is a mystery and there is an answer to it. Just be persistent in chasing down each clue.

 

[robie]

Wines, as they age, go through awkward stages. They can get better, then regress, followed again by better stages. This cycle can continue for many months. I can't imagine what would cause your wines to crash that young.

The temps are high but not that high.

I agree with some of the others, let the wine mature for a longer time. I have two year old kit wines that are still not ready to drink. At that age, they can change drastically in only 3 or 4 months. It always amazes me.

I would not trust topping off with argon or CO2 for long periods of time. Top off with a like wine and keep it topped off continually after fermentation is completed. Make sure you sanitize your bottles properly.

 

[Sudz]

Do you sulfite your bottles before filling? How are the corks stored before you use them? How close to the time you are filling the bottles were they last washed with hot water and some type of detergent? I clean my bottles when I de-label them and I clean them again just before bottling. Are you using a #9 x 1.75" cork? I would recommend these measures if you are not now doing so.

Thanks Rocky.

We wash each bottle after use and accumulate them for treatment with PBW. After soaking with PBW and throughly rinsing, they are stored until bottling day. The day of bottling we pump iodophor through each bottle and place on a sanitized bottle tree prior to filling. I inject a shot of CO2 in each bottle, fill, and cork with a floor corker. I do not know the cork size but my supplier of the bottles is the same guy who sells me the corks ( and most everything else). I soak the corks in iodophor for a couple of minutes immediately prior to use.

We use this same scheme for bottling our white wine which has never exhibited a problem. I also use this same sanitation scheme on my beer bottling and have never experienced any type of problem. I understand that the beer is much more susceptible to infection because of the significantly higher pH and total lack of preservative which further points to a satisfactory sanitation routine.

Admittedly, this is all conjecture on my part as I continue to search for the answer.

 

[Sudz]

I would not trust topping off with argon or CO2 for long periods of time. Top off with a like wine and keep it topped off continually after fermentation is completed. Make sure you sanitize your bottles properly.

This has occurred to me.

I typically bottle after 3-4 weeks of clearing in a carboy so my wines don't sit too long under the gas. However, I must say I don't know how to rule out oxidation other than the fact these wines all have great color and briliance when they crash.

Maybe I am being too quick to judge. I'm assuming the wine is no longer viable since the crashing taste continues to get more pronounced as time moves forward. Also, I've never experienced this particular taste in any wine other than the reds I make. My wife also agrees with this analysis although it's not as offensive to her as it is to me.

 

[ibglowin]

I see a couple of things your doing differently than many/most of us.

1) Use of PBW
2) Use of Iodophor in the bottles

I am not saying this is 100% the root cause of any weird off flavors but this sticks out as different and needs to be at least looked into.

I would stop using PBW and use a non chlorine generic version of Oxyclean and always rinse well after use.
I would stop using iodophor as your sanitizer. After you rinse your bottles well with water, let them dry on a bottle tree. Just before bottling hit them with a sulfite rinse.

I use iodophor on my press and to clean my primaries without any problems.

Either the PBW or the iodophor could be causing some off odor or flavor. Its certainly worth a shot to try something different.

 

[Sudz]

I am not saying this is 100% the root cause of any weird off flavors but this sticks out as different and needs to be at least looked into.

I would stop using PBW and use a non chlorine generic version of Oxyclean and always rinse well after use.
I would stop using iodophor as your sanitizer. After you rinse your bottles well with water, let them dry on a bottle tree. Just before bottling hit them with a sulfite rinse.

I use iodophor on my press and to clean my primaries without any problems.

Either the PBW or the iodophor could be causing some off oder or flavor. Its certainly worth a shot to try something different.

Sounds like a plan. It sure beats continuing to do the same thing.

I didn't think the PBW was a chlorine based product? If this is not the case that could explain alot.

When you hit the bottles with sulfite, you don't rinse the sulfite before bottling do you?

Thanks, Alan

 

[Rocky]

I do not rinse the bottles after hitting them on my Vinator. I just pump it three or four times, hold it upside down to drain out most of the sulfite solution and place it on a rack. Some of the sulfite is left in the bottle and that, to me, is a good thing.

I like Mike's plan and it would certainly be worth your time, money and trouble to try it. As Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thng over and over and expecting a different result." Best of luck.

 

[ibglowin]

PBW contains sodium metasilicate and sodium carbonate. No chlorine. OxiClean contains two active ingredients: Sodium Percarbonate and Sodium Carbonate. The first is baking soda and the second is washing soda. Honestly its probably not the PBW in my opinion so that leaves the iodophor which is as we all know supposed to be a no rinse product when made per directions. Again its something that most of us don't use and we are not experiencing the same problems so look at what's different and swap them out either one by one or use the shotgun approach and change them all out at once.

No need to rinse the sulfite solution out of the bottle. If you have a vinator and hang them back up on the bottle tree they will drain out for the most part and leave only a small trace amount of sulifite.

 

[ibglowin]

Here are a couple of other things to question.

Is your water good? No off flavors or loads of iron or sediment?
Are you letting the fines sit for prolonged periods of time at the bottom of the carboy? Always get the boatload of fines racked off within a few weeks after the wine has cleared. Do not let the fines sit at the bottom for months on end.
Are you adding sorbate? Sorbate is known to contribute to off flavors (mostly a bubble gum flavor/smell)
If you have been using the same corks the whole time, perhaps its time to switch them out to another supplier, again it may or may not be the source of the problem but it could be. Many of us have used Fine Vine Wines Perfect Agglomerate Corks for years without incident.

 

[JordanPond]

Is PBW Powdered Brewery Wash?

 

[Sudz]

Is your water good?
Excellent. Previuosly checked this out throughly for my brewing activity.

Are you letting the fines sit for prolonged periods of time at the bottom of the carboy?
Nope. Rack to secondary after initial ferment. Rack to clearing carboy in aprox 10 days. Allow to clear 2 - 3 weeks then bottle.

Are you adding sorbate?
Only what's in the kit.

If you have been using the same corks...
Nope. Have used synthetic and natural and multiple brands.

I appreciate the ideas... Thanks!

 

[Sudz]

Is PBW Powdered Brewery Wash?

Yes it is...