Improving my Wine

[ckassotis]

I would disagree in that I think most cheap TA kits are extremely hard to read accurately. Especially with red wines.

pH meters on the other hand are considerably cheaper than $80 these days and would serve you better than a TA kit if you had to choose one over the other - in my opinion.

 

[Turock]

Well, I don't see it as a point to agree OR disagree with. TA is mightily important when working with warm weather grapes. The balance of TA and PH produce a much better tasting wine. Your example of the initial numbers of your Calif grapes is proof of what you are saying. Warm weather grapes demand a whole different skill set than cold weather grapes do. The two are not the same, by any means.

The thing I disagreed with is that "you ALWAYS have to take TA into account." The wines that we make are proof that TA is not that important of an issue FOR US. All the new wine makers in our wine club are working with TA because that is the way they were taught. Many of their wines have problems because they are working high acid fruits and grapes and the TA reading is only ballpark for their estimation of PH.

We USED to work with TA many years ago. We ended up tossing the TA test kit and going with PH control--such a difference in our wines!! We often have people say to us,"why doesn't ALL wine taste like your's?" Or,"where can I buy this wine?" We didn't get those comments until we started eliminating water additions to our wines, and then being very strict with PH control. And I think that's the big thing for us--we use NO WATER. So that demands PH control.

We make cherry,serviceberry, plum,red raspberry,black raspberry, blackberry,pear,apple,strawberry,elderberry,paw paw fruit wines. Grape wines are concord, Niagara,catawba. We also make some Calif wines from concentrate for blending purposes,also. We also live in an area with high acid soil---so a PH meter is a small price to pay in order to make good wines from high acid fruits. We grow a lot of our fruit or it's growing wild in the fence rows. We have a very small vineyard of concord. We pick the bulk of our concord and all of the Niagara in vineyards in our area. We also hit the Amish fruit auctions for strawberries because we get better fruit from the Amish than any of the local fruit farms.

 

[ckassotis]

I think I was agreeing with you actually. But now I think I have to disagree!

I think once you are producing water-free wines from fruits (not grapes, which I don't see why you would ever add water to), pH and TA both become necessary. Blackberry in particular, can have prohibitively high TA values while having pH values that fall within the acceptable range. I think it matters more with fruits other than grapes, although I personally would still use both for all wines.

 

[Turock]

Our blackberry here is very acidic. Usually comes in around 3.0 or a tad under. We still make it with no water and get rave reviews on it and blue ribbons in judging. And we ignore its TA and just go with it. It tastes like a blackberry pie! My brother is a BIG fan of blackberry wine. He's had many commercial bottles of blackberry and he constantly tells me that our blackberry is better than any he's ever had.

But a lot of this depends on the taste buds of the drinker. Some people have more of a tolerance for different flavor intensities than others do. No problem with checking TA of it and adjusting if that's what tastes better to you. Experience and your own tastes are always the way to go---there are 20 ways to do something, and all of them are correct.

 

[JohnT]

I would disagree in that I think most cheap TA kits are extremely hard to read accurately. Especially with red wines.

pH meters on the other hand are considerably cheaper than $80 these days and would serve you better than a TA kit if you had to choose one over the other - in my opinion.

I do not seem to have a problem. There have been times where I performed TA test twice on the same wine and got the same results.

 

[JohnT]

Sorry, John. You are only right that the nucleus of atoms contains protons. But a positively charged hydrogen atom is simply a proton. Atomic hydrogen consists of one proton (nucleus) and one electron. When it loses the electron it becomes positively charged. All that's left is one proton.

An ION can be either positively charged or negatively charged.

Re-read the following..

"A positive charged Ion is a proton". I was disagreeing with this in that an ion is created by a change in the number of electrons in an atom. Yes, in the case of hydrogen, a positive ion is just a proton (since it only contains 1 electorn and 1 proton). However, any other element could still contain a number a electrons. The important thing here is that there is an imbalance between the number of portons and the number of electrons. I will not even go into neutrons.

 

[joeswine]

horse of a different color

just got on this thread ,yes, yes, yes,kits are the way to start and progress from,no dought,they give a new wine direction,structure and fundamental wine basics,they are the stepping stones to progress your wine making skills and learn to( think outside the box,)mentality Once you've connected the dots enough times you'll get the Idea of how to connect the dots with fresh juice and after a period of trials and errors,the fundamentals will be install and you'll be able to travel between the two realms with easy and confidence,then you can step out side the box at will,or take the final step and much more work and toil with fresh fruit or grapes,both are a art form if done correctly.
kits are the starting point,to move forward from----- the building blocks.....

 

[Julie]

What "W" word????

Oh JohnT I'm sure if you think about it it will come to you and let's just don't go there. Dan you are going to head to the corner,

 

[Runningwolf]

What "W" word????

Welches

 

[Runningwolf]

Our blackberry here is very acidic. Usually comes in around 3.0 or a tad under. We still make it with no water and get rave reviews on it and blue ribbons in judging. And we ignore its TA and just go with it. It tastes like a blackberry pie! My brother is a BIG fan of blackberry wine. He's had many commercial bottles of blackberry and he constantly tells me that our blackberry is better than any he's ever had.

But a lot of this depends on the taste buds of the drinker. Some people have more of a tolerance for different flavor intensities than others do. No problem with checking TA of it and adjusting if that's what tastes better to you. Experience and your own tastes are always the way to go---there are 20 ways to do something, and all of them are correct.

Turock, I do believe that it is important to take TA and ph tests. JohnT I have to agree with most folks the Accuvin TA tests are inaccurate along with their other test kits.

Now Turock you mention not using water and getting excellent results but you don't mention how. I would like to hear more about this. I also did a good quaint of fruit wines and grapes this year without water except for one. I am not saying if it is right or wrong, I would just like to hear more about it. I ended up taking very high acid fruit and blending it with very low acid grapes and it turned out very good. This was not the plan but rather a desperate move that I hope to improve on and keep doing.

I am enjoying this thread and find the debate very interesting (lets keep it respectful of each other's methods). The scientific part of the nutrons and such, I am clueless on and skip over.

 

[grapeman]

Wow, lots of opinions here!

To me, I work with cold climate grapes. Niagara is not a cold climate grape and at an acceptable pH, has an inherent very low TA, so Turock, when the pH is in line, the TA is also nothing to worry about. Niagara is more of a cool climate grape. You are absolutely correct in that you should not water it down to lower the TA. If the TA is too high, the grapes weren't ripe. You can monitor the brix and pH and when they start getting in the correct range,, the TA will be also.

True cold climate grapes such as Frontenac or LaCrescent have a screaming high TA while the pH is low, say under 3.0. As the grapes ripen, the pH starts to rise and the TA drops. By checking for the riper pH range for those of say 3.3, the TA will begin to drop sharply. At some point, all the factors come into line if you have enough of a growing season. When the pH gets to about 3.4, the TA will get to around 1.0 to 1.2g/L and the brix will be at about it's max. If you get the TA much lower, the pH will rise too rapidly. When working with true cold climate grapes you really need to test pH, brix, TA and taste. They all are important. And no I don't use the cheap TA test kit. I use a digital benchtop pH meter, a Hannah mini-titrator and refractometer along with my tongue.

 

[Turock]

Turock, I do believe that it is important to take TA and ph tests. JohnT I have to agree with most folks the Accuvin TA tests are inaccurate along with their other test kits.

Now Turock you mention not using water and getting excellent results but you don't mention how. I would like to hear more about this. I also did a good quaint of fruit wines and grapes this year without water except for one. I am not saying if it is right or wrong, I would just like to hear more about it. I ended up taking very high acid fruit and blending it with very low acid grapes and it turned out very good. This was not the plan but rather a desperate move that I hope to improve on and keep doing.

I am enjoying this thread and find the debate very interesting (lets keep it respectful of each other's methods). The scientific part of the nutrons and such, I am clueless on and skip over.

OK--so what would you like to know about it? There's not much to it, altho it might be hard for a beginner because you are "off recipe" and have to estimate how many gallons the must will make so you can adjust your chemistries accordingly. We also freeze all our fruit first in order to extract more juice. We like this technique because it yields wines with a big nose and intense flavors.

 

[JohnT]

Welches

(OK, I'm having a Senior moment).

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!

 

[Runningwolf]

OK--so what would you like to know about it? There's not much to it, altho it might be hard for a beginner because you are "off recipe" and have to estimate how many gallons the must will make so you can adjust your chemistries accordingly. We also freeze all our fruit first in order to extract more juice. We like this technique because it yields wines with a big nose and intense flavors.

I believe most folks on here also freeze fruit (except grapes) before pressing. What I was trying to get at are you adjusting with chemicals or by blending with other juice.

 

[SarahRides]

Wow! Very informative thread everyone.............I suppose I should be ordering a new pH meter soon before the Chilean grapes come in!

 

[Turock]

Runningwolf--Yes that's correct. Because most of the fruit is so acidic, we are adding calcium carbonate to bring the PH in line. There's only one thing we add acid to--and that's the Niagara. We DO blend, but not for any kind of control.

Sarah---I think a PH meter is the way to go because the litmus paers aren't very good indications. PH influences taste so much, and if you get your wines better adjusted at the primary, your results will be so much better and you avoid having to try adjustments when you're trying to bottle.