Improving my Wine

[ibglowin]

Might have to disagree with your disagree there John.

I found kits the perfect entry into winemaking. Way less equipment needs. Basically "cookbook" directions" and they produced a very good end product if you gave it enough time and purchased a higher end kit with a grape pack and better juice.

I am totally dumbfounded by your comment about kits requiring more chemistry than fresh grapes. In my experience I found that couldn't be further from the truth.

Kits are acid and pH balanced out of the box and need no adjustments. You don't even need to monitor SO2 if you bottle within 3 months of stabilizing. Sure you can dig into the nitty gritty details if you want to with a pH meter and SO2 analyzer if you really want to go that far. If you don't you can just follow the SO2 top off instructions supplied with the kit.

Working with fresh grapes...... Much, much more equipment to purchase and or rent. Lets see, pretty non-stop chemistry if you don't want to resort to just dumb luck. pH, TA, SO2, MLF, more pH, more TA, cold stabilization, more SO2.......

Kits gave me all the knowledge and confidence to move on to fresh grapes when I felt ready. I just bottled by first batches of Cab Sauv and Merlot from 2010 made from fresh grapes. They turned out fantastic. Best wine I have ever made for sure.

They would have been a complete and utter disaster without the training I had from making kits. I would have learned either way for sure but this winemaker really appreciated the ease, flexibility and affordability that winemaking kits offered up front while I learned the process and decided this is a "hobby" I really enjoyed and wanted to not only stick with, but take to the next level.

Cheers,

 

[robie]

I have to agree with ibglowin on this one. Kits are much easier and a great way to break into wine making. Helps one gain a little comfidence before diving into all those calculations and chemical additions.

With kits, about the only adjustment to be made is when bulk aging and adding additional SO2. TA adjustments before bottling a kit should IMO be done by taste, rather than by chemical test.

 

[Dugger]

........
In my experience, kits require WAY more handling and chemistry then I feel I need when using fresh grapes.........

My gosh, what kind of kits are you making!? I don't think it can get much simpler.

 

[JohnT]

Might have to disagree with your disagree there John.

I found kits the perfect entry into winemaking. Way less equipment needs. Basically "cookbook" directions" and they produced a very good end product if you gave it enough time and purchased a higher end kit with a grape pack and better juice.

I am totally dumbfounded by your comment about kits requiring more chemistry than fresh grapes. In my experience I found that couldn't be further from the truth.

Kits are acid and pH balanced out of the box and need no adjustments. You don't even need to monitor SO2 if you bottle within 3 months of stabilizing. Sure you can dig into the nitty gritty details if you want to with a pH meter and SO2 analyzer if you really want to go that far. If you don't you can just follow the SO2 top off instructions supplied with the kit.

Working with fresh grapes...... Much, much more equipment to purchase and or rent. Lets see, pretty non-stop chemistry if you don't want to resort to just dumb luck. pH, TA, SO2, MLF, more pH, more TA, cold stabilization, more SO2.......

Kits gave me all the knowledge and confidence to move on to fresh grapes when I felt ready. I just bottled by first batches of Cab Sauv and Merlot from 2010 made from fresh grapes. They turned out fantastic. Best wine I have ever made for sure.

They would have been a complete and utter disaster without the training I had from making kits. I would have learned either way for sure but this winemaker really appreciated the ease, flexibility and affordability that winemaking kits offered up front while I learned the process and decided this is a "hobby" I really enjoyed and wanted to not only stick with, but take to the next level.

Cheers,

Guys,

I KNOW THAT I WILL GET ARGUEMENT OVER THE FOLLOWING......

MLF is optional, as is cold stabilization (I never cold stabalize). TA and PH are essentially the same thing. Granted, the PH levels are an unknown, and you should test, but you should also test when making kits.

Monitoring the SO2 is also an optional exercise. Granted you may wish to maintain the 30 ppm level, but it does not mean that really, really need to do this.

The kit cookbooks also call for de-gassing and also the use of sorbates (also things that I never do).



OK, so lets just say that the chemistry is the same (for the sake of arguement). I have posted on this thread a way of making from grapes that will only cost around $12.50 in equipment. A 5 gal pail and a new 15 gal garbage can is all you need. Sure, you could go the extra mile and purchase a six dollar titration kit to measure acid, but you would still be paying under $20 extra.

The training you received from making a kit was obtained by reading the kit's set of instructions. On a simular note, there are scads of "how to" books on making wine from real fruit. Not knowing how instruction sets are put together, I would assume that they simply tell you WHAT to do and not WHY you should do it. The "how to" book is a far better teacher.

My point is that I would not rule out making wine from grapes for "first timers". Many of us started with grapes, and are very glad for it. I, myself, made only 1 kit in my lifetime. It turned out OK, but not nearly as good as the wine I make from grapes.

 

[russfink]

TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?

 

[ibglowin]

OMG!

John and I agree about something!

I, myself, made only 1 kit in my lifetime. It turned out OK, but not nearly as good as the wine I make from grapes.

 

[digitaleye]

TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?

I believe that is correct correct regarding the pH scale and its certainly possible for wines or musts with different TA to have the same pH.

 

[robie]

TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?

True, they are not the same. When one goes up, you can expect the other to go down, and visa-versa.

As far as the relationship of how much one changes in regard to the other, that is very variable from one wine to the next and even one batch to the next. That's why when one adjusts the acid level, one should adjust it by half of what the formula dictates, stir really well, then test/adjust again.

 

[digitaleye]

Regarding kits v. actual grapes I'm reminded of a quote fromm a local winemaker who told me once (and I paraphrasing here) that 90% of the final quality of the wine comes form the original quality of the grapes. Only 10% is what is done to them in the winery.

His point was that you can make really good wine if you start with really good grapes and just don't eff them up.

My point is that those probably aren't the very best grapes getting processed into wine kits.

No don't get me wrong, I'm sure you can get decent wine form a kit, no need to flame me here but I think if you have any possibility of getting your hands on just picked grapes or better yet just ready to be picked grapes you should do it.

 

[ckassotis]

You do indeed! pH does use a logarithmic scale, which makes comparing the two quite difficult as robie noted.

My one point of contention between fresh grapes and kits would be the cost I think. While you say that you have listed a very cheap collection of items that can be used to make it work, you haven't really. You are missing all of the chemicals, additives, yeast, etc. that you will need to buy and that will come provided with the wine kit already.

Nevermind the actual grape cost. I haven't seen any quality grapes that can match the price on some of the kits. Not to say they all don't. Some of the elite kits can get very expensive. The trade-off being that you don't need to do nearly as much work or have any many supplies on hand. But you certainly aren't going to get going for $20, especially when you haven't accounted for fruit yet!

 

[ckassotis]

And so as not to be misunderstood - I have grapes coming in a few months. Eagerly anticipating their arrival. I just am happy that I didn't start with grapes. I do think that at the end of the day you will likely end up with better quality from fresh, but I like that I have now learned quite a few good lessons that I can use to hopefully really excel with these grapes.

 

[robie]

And so as not to be misunderstood - I have grapes coming in a few months. Eagerly anticipating their arrival. I just am happy that I didn't start with grapes. I do think that at the end of the day you will likely end up with better quality from fresh, but I like that I have now learned quite a few good lessons that I can use to hopefully really excel with these grapes.

I am in total agreement with you on this. Before you get your grapes, be sure you have all the chemicals ON HAND. There will not be time to order things once the grapes arrive. Decide if you are going to do an MLF, so you can acquire the bacteria ahead of time. Same for yeast, decide what type you will use and pre-order it.

www.morewinemaking.com has a really nice manual for making red wines and one for white wines. I would use them as a reference.

 

[ckassotis]

Thanks, I need to check those manuals out.

One further thought, from robie's comment. There is more urgency with fresh grapes. I got a kit that was well recommended a week or so ago, but have been deciding which yeast to use since then. I like that there isn't a crazy rush to get it started. I did my homework, and ordered the yeast I wanted last night. Not to say that you can't do all that before, but it allows more room for error.

My only other thought on the matter is that kits do also allow you to try your hand at varietals that you might not get a chance to make otherwise. I realize that now some places do frozen grape pails, which you can use to get a lot of otherwise inaccessible varieties, but in terms of fresh grapes, you are (mostly) going to be looking nearby, or at most, within the country. If you want to try some Italian grapes though, or something of the sort, I believe you would need to try a kit. I could be wrong though!

 

[JohnT]

TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?

PH measures the strength of acid present in wine. TA measures the total weight of acid in wine. There can be a difference, but either measurement will do.

 

[JohnT]

You do indeed! pH does use a logarithmic scale, which makes comparing the two quite difficult as robie noted.

My one point of contention between fresh grapes and kits would be the cost I think. While you say that you have listed a very cheap collection of items that can be used to make it work, you haven't really. You are missing all of the chemicals, additives, yeast, etc. that you will need to buy and that will come provided with the wine kit already.

Nevermind the actual grape cost. I haven't seen any quality grapes that can match the price on some of the kits. Not to say they all don't. Some of the elite kits can get very expensive. The trade-off being that you don't need to do nearly as much work or have any many supplies on hand. But you certainly aren't going to get going for $20, especially when you haven't accounted for fruit yet!

OK,

The $20 is just for the additional equipment you would need. Of course you would need to purchase fruit, but the cost of fruit is comparable to the price of a kit.

So if I am making 5 gallons of finished wine, I would go with 2 lugs (65 lbs) of grapes. This tends to yeild around 6 gallons (the extra gallon is used for top off). If the grapes come in around $28 to $32 a lug (which is typical for my local), then the total cost of the fruit is $56 to $64. Not knowing the price of kits, I assume that this may be more expensive? Do good kits cost $64?

Asside from producing a better wine (I think that we are all agreed here), there is the artistic element that I felt I missed when making a kit. Making a kit involves predetermined instructions. All of the maceration, blending, etc is done by someone else. It felt like I "painting by numbers".

For me, the thought that if everone that buys the same kit, and follows the same directions, ends up with the exact same wine is rather disheartening.
With fruit, there is a sense of adventure and the knowledge that anything can happen. This coupled with great results is a feeling that I think every beginner (that has the means) should experience.

Now before everyone gets their "knickers in a twist", I am NOT saying that kit wines suck. Quite the opposite, I was quite amazed by the level of quality wine that kits yeild. All I am saying is that (IMHO) you can get a better quality wine from real fruit.

Sure, there is more labor involved, but aren't the best things in life worth working for?

In summary, I still say that beginners should not be first turned on to kits and should wait to used fresh grapes. With a little more effort, and only a little extra cash, you can make a great wine from fresh fruit. A wine that is potentially better than wines made from a kit.

also, If you get stuck on a problem, we members of winemakingtalk.com are here to help.

 

[Julie]

PH is the measurement of the strength of acid, TA is the measurement of the percent of weight of acid.

TA affects the taste of wine and PH affects the stability of wine.

 

[ibglowin]

Wow,

I want to know what grapes your using that you get 6 gallons of finished wine from 65lbs of fruit!

I have made almost every varietal of vinifera noble (from 2 different states) and they all seem to produce ~6 gallons of finished wine from ~100lbs of fruit.

So if I am making 5 gallons of finished wine, I would go with 2 lugs (65 lbs) of grapes. This tends to yeild around 6 gallons (the extra gallon is used for top off).

 

[ckassotis]

Yeah I won't disagree with you that I think that you can potentially do more with grapes than kits.

However, yeah - first, you should need 100 lbs for ~6 gallons. That's certainly what people around here get.

My key argument would just be that there are a lot more things that you need to be concerned about with fresh grapes. I think it is good to learn some of the basic skills first without needing to address everything your first time around. Totally respect you for going ahead with fresh grapes your first time out though. I really would not have wanted to. I also don't want to do anything with the bare basics though, and I feel I would need to spend a significant amount of extra money on supplies for fresh grapes in order to meet my "acceptable" level of comfort. Everyone is different though, and I salute your willingness to go all out your first time! I am super excited to try fresh grapes this fall!

 

[JohnT]

Let me re-phrase...

I take two lugs and make 5 gallons of wine.

while under secondary, I place most in carboy, and some in gallon jug. When fermentation is complete, I rack both the gallon jug and the carboy into one carboy (filled).

 

[JohnT]

Wow,

I want to know what grapes your using that you get 6 gallons of finished wine from 65lbs of fruit!

I have made almost every varietal of vinifera noble (from 2 different states) and they all seem to produce ~6 gallons of finished wine from ~100lbs of fruit.

glowin,

What happened? A minute ago, we were on the same side (and even agreed on something)!! (haha) .

BTW, If the fresh grapes you are using are (in any way) related to concord, then all bet are off. Go with a kit! ROTFLMAO!!!!