Got off the Phone with the Fermaid people

[seth8530]

Just got an email back with official numbers for YAN contribution from a couple of fermaid products. The email is quoted below.

Hi Seth,
Below is some YAN contribution information.

Fermaid K
YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L
YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 30mgN/L

Fermaid O
YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 10gN/L*
YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 12mgN/L*

*The organic nitrogen in Fermaid O is used very efficiently by the yeast (it's like feeding the yeast broccoli instead of a candy bar) so although the YAN contribution numbers look lower you can actually think of it as more like 3x the YAN contribution numbers listed (and 4x if you've used GoFerm during rehydration).

Let me know if you have any questions about all this.
Thanks!
--Brooke

 

[Deezil]

Can you ask them about the nitrogen content of Booster Blanc/Rouge & Opti-White/Red? They're classified as Yeast Nutrients, and it says they contain trace amounts of nitrogen, i just wonder how trace, trace is...

And maybe toss in that new Fermaid-A, to get numbers for that one too?
And maybe DAP for a reference?

... Didnt know you were writing the email, obviously

 

[seth8530]

Ill have to ask that later lol. I just sent them another email about the maximum safe ammount of fermaid that can be used in wine due to concerns of vitamin excess.

 

[seth8530]

Ok, I have been emailing scottlabs and lavlin about their products. If you make up a list of questions for scottlabs about their product line I will do my best to get them answered. They seem really helpful. Scott labs seems to be having issues releasing much information about the YAN needs of thier yeast due to concerns that the information is proprietary but.. we shall see.

 

[Deezil]

With Lallemand, they made this PDF;
On page 10, there's a graph but the names dont mean anything to us.

Can they assign the names on the graph to commercially purchasable yeast strains?
That would give us a nice starting point, on the amount of YAN needed to convert sugar..

Booster Blanc/Rouge & Opti-White Nitrogen numbers would be nice; As would, do they contribute towards the max levels of minerals/vitamins commercially acceptable?

I'll do some more thinking, I know theres more questions

Oh! Any hopes of Torulaspora delbrueckii, Pichia kluyveri, or Kluyveromyces thermotolerans yeast strains available for the home winemaker, in the future?

 

[seth8530]

With Lallemand, they made this PDF;
On page 10, there's a graph but the names dont mean anything to us.

Can they assign the names on the graph to commercially purchasable yeast strains?
That would give us a nice starting point, on the amount of YAN needed to convert sugar..

Booster Blanc/Rouge & Opti-White Nitrogen numbers would be nice; As would, do they contribute towards the max levels of minerals/vitamins commercially acceptable?

I'll do some more thinking, I know theres more questions

Oh! Any hopes of Torulaspora delbrueckii, Pichia kluyveri, or Kluyveromyces thermotolerans yeast strains available for the home winemaker, in the future?

Ok, sounds like good questions. Try and present them in an organized manner so these kind people will be able to answer them easily. Also, try and clearly separate your questions that are relevant to lavlin yeast and the kind that are relevant to the fermaid crew.

 

[Deezil]

Lemme do some more thinking, I'll clean it up, separate the thoughts and organize it in a manner that it seems to flow

I just need to pull my head out of 'beekeeping' and get back into the 'winemaking'

 

[seth8530]

Hehe, I feel ya on that one. Once we get all of this information compiled we should try and make a sticky out of it.

 

[Deezil]

What types of ‘fermentative advantages’ (source) does using Opti-White/-Red during fermentation contribute to a finished wine; do either product contribute any accountable amount of nitrogen within normal dosage parameters?

How about Booster Blanc/Rouge; I’ve seen all four of these products (Opti-White/-Red, Booster Blanc/Rouge) all classified in the ‘yeast nutrient’ category (source) – do these contribute any notable nitrogen to the fermentation?

Are there any other facets of these products that qualify them as 'nutrients', that I may be missing?

With yeast in mind - are there any charts/graphs comparing the various facets of the different yeast strains offered? I've seen charts for nitrogen needs (pg. 10), glycerol production (pg. 2), and maybe one or two others but they're still in the format used in the study & without knowing the 'common name', the information is of little use. Any charts or graphs that you could provide would be greatly appreciated.[FONT=&quot]
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[seth8530]

Just writing down my thoughts before I forget them. Got off the phone with the awesome people at lavlin.

Grape wines ie wines with fairly good nutrients

Goferm to start out and then staggered Fermaid O untill the 2/3 break.

Mead

Goferm then possibly a relatively large dose of fermaidK to provide micro nutrients and then follow up with staggered fermaid O. Another possibility is a staggered k then O nutrient schedule but keep in mind that while the yeast is using the DAP in the K it can block the yeast from using the nice and wonderful O.


Avoid fermenting outside of the fermentation range advertised by the yeast. Even for red grape wines. Why risk the health and the delicate aromatics and off flavours for a little bit of colour? Instead make sure that the must is well mixed to ensure that the colour can be extracted across the whole concentration gradient.

If you plan on co-inoculating yeast and ML bacteria wait to add the ML nutrient until after alcoholic fermentation has completed because it is likely that the yeast might eat up the ML's nutrient leaving your ML starved and possibly in the mood to eat sugar which can lead to unpleasantness.

Also, their are these things called sterols which help the yeast develop a protective barrier during fermentation that protects them from alcohol and things like temperature and PH swings. You can help your yeast develop theses sterols by using a good re hydration nutrient at the start of fermentation.

Also, I am attaching the power point that the kind lady from lavlin sent me.

View attachment Awesume Ferm Info.zip

 

[Bob1016]

They said 2/3 sugar for fermaid O? Very interesting! I have been using it up to the 1/2 break (with some yeast hulls if the abv is towards the top), just to mitigate H2S and help them finish ferment in my meads.
I'm curious to see your take on my new practice:
Add ~26ppm YAN with fermaid O at must make up, then pitch and add 40ppm YAN from fermaid K, the rest of the nutrients beeing split for several feedings. I add the fermaid O at the begining for the yeast while in lag (they won't take up much, but some end lag earlier than others and they'll eat the FO), and since the yeast will prefer the DAP in FK, when they're done with that, they can eat the aminos in FK and FO.
This is my justification, it seems to work well with my meads, just curious what you think of it.
If you get a chance to talk to Clayton Cone, he is an amazingly knowledgable man.

 

[seth8530]

They said 2/3 sugar for fermaid O? Very interesting! I have been using it up to the 1/2 break (with some yeast hulls if the abv is towards the top), just to mitigate H2S and help them finish ferment in my meads.
I'm curious to see your take on my new practice:
Add ~26ppm YAN with fermaid O at must make up, then pitch and add 40ppm YAN from fermaid K, the rest of the nutrients beeing split for several feedings. I add the fermaid O at the begining for the yeast while in lag (they won't take up much, but some end lag earlier than others and they'll eat the FO), and since the yeast will prefer the DAP in FK, when they're done with that, they can eat the aminos in FK and FO.
This is my justification, it seems to work well with my meads, just curious what you think of it.
If you get a chance to talk to Clayton Cone, he is an amazingly knowledgable man.

I would be interested in talking to him. First though, I need a clarification. Is your proposed method for fairly nutritious must like fruit and grape wine? Or is it for meads? It matters.

 

[Bob1016]

It certainly does matter! My mistake, I mainly do meads, a few beers, and some fruit wines/ciders.
I was referring to meads, and partially for some fruit wines (the ones where significant capitalization and dilution are required such as raspberry and the like where nutrients are also lacking).
I did notice an improvement on my last traditional when I added FO pre pitch and used my normal nutrient schedule (minus 26ppm YAN from the other sources).
I love having FO on hand if things get a little reductive in my meads, but I always try to add it before the 1/2 sugar break, so maybe I can add a little later, though it always prevents H2S/mercaptan when I add and splash rack.
In grape musts, I would think you could supplement solely with FO, you normally don't need more than 50ppm YAN added right (especially when on the skins)? Unless it is a very difficult year, in which case a stressed ferment might be a stylistic choice.

 

[seth8530]

It certainly does matter! My mistake, I mainly do meads, a few beers, and some fruit wines/ciders.
I was referring to meads, and partially for some fruit wines (the ones where significant capitalization and dilution are required such as raspberry and the like where nutrients are also lacking).
I did notice an improvement on my last traditional when I added FO pre pitch and used my normal nutrient schedule (minus 26ppm YAN from the other sources).
I love having FO on hand if things get a little reductive in my meads, but I always try to add it before the 1/2 sugar break, so maybe I can add a little later, though it always prevents H2S/mercaptan when I add and splash rack.
In grape musts, I would think you could supplement solely with FO, you normally don't need more than 50ppm YAN added right (especially when on the skins)? Unless it is a very difficult year, in which case a stressed ferment might be a stylistic choice.

You really need to know the YAN of the grapes you are working with always. Because they vary wildly. However, it is difficult to get that number sometimes.

I agree with ya that it really matters what you are fermenting. For most nutrient friendly must start out with go-ferm ( it will help the yeast later on when the fermentation gets difficult by building up sterols plus it contains vitamins which fermaid O does not have)
Then I would do a fermaid O only regimen.

For something like mead the question is much more difficult to answer. Once again I would start out with go ferm. Then I would most likely add in K once fermentation starts to supply it with some of those much lacked nutrients.. Then I would have a debate to whether I would do alternating applications of O and K or whether I would try and go on with just O. The danger of alternating with O and K is that the yeast might decide to eat just the K because yeast will gobble of up the DAP and kind of ignore the organic ammino nitrogen. However, by not alternating you sort of run a risk of not getting enough vitamins to the yeast.. So those are the two sides of the coin.

Also, it is ok to break YAN additions into many steps that are based on the fermentation progress. Ie YAN additions every 1/8 of the way through so long as you keep your total YAN objective in mind. If I did this I would give it an initial dose that is larger than the rest though because that is a challenging time.

Yeast can use the organic ammino nitrogen from fermaid O past the 1/2 sugar break which is yet another one of the major advantages of O over DAP based nutrients. Also, I believe that the organic nitrogen gives you a lot more of a stable stead fermentation which can be desirable compared to a hot and angry one where aromatics can sometimes get blown off.

Another challenge is actually finding out the YAN needs of the indidual yeast strains based on the conditions that the yeast will see during fermentation. I am yet to find a first hand source that really discusses this issue.

 

[Bob1016]

Go-ferm should always be used in rehydration of dried yeast, as nutrients should be added in stages, you can have good results without doing one or both, but beat results are obtained by using both processes.

My point was that with two meads, using the same target YAN (150ppm), same yeast, and same honey varietals (different years, but close) the batch with fermaid O added before yeast pitch (replacing a percentage of fermaid K, but giving the same end YAN levels) had a better flavor profile than the one that did not have the FO added at the begining.
I wonder if this is something anyone else has seen or just me.
I typically do 6 additions, at end of lag and 1/15 sugar intervals until the 1/3 break. If it is a higher gravity batch I will add yeast hulls so that the yeast can finish the job, but now I may add FO with the hulls to get more YAN.

 

[seth8530]

I am pretty sure yeast hulls are redudent if you are using fermaid O.. But, I bleive their have been studies that show that fermaid O usage gives better aromatics and other traits because of the happier yeast compared to K and other DAP based nutrients. So, yes, it would not surprise me if O gave you a better mead.

 

[Bob1016]

I've got the lallamand study, and several others showing that amino acid metabolism is very important in fermentation aromas; basically each amino acid will yeild different aromatic compounds once metabolized, the ones specific to fermaid O are very positive once converted.
Yeast hulls are very useful when pushing the alcohol tolerance of yeast strains, they bind to certain fatty acids which will inhibit yeast metabolism. The stated alcohol tolerance of yeast is a combination of alcohol toxicity and the build up of these fatty acids which together slow the metabolic rate of the yeast and can make them poop out a little early.
I have found that 1g/gal will make the resultant mead a little drier in taste even if the gravity is the same, most of the times it will nock off a point or 2. When I have fermented meads with and without yeast hulls, the ones with will have the dry characteristic of one fermented with champagne yeast (just talking about how dry it tastes, not the esters or lack thereof). They also add a small amount of YAN, but not very much.

Overall, I like fermaid K and O very much, if I were fermenting higher YAN musts, I would probably use just the fermaid O, in meads it is quite difficult to get the YAN numbers and fermaid K is very useful, as is DAP.

Over on GotMead, someone did use fermaid O as his sole nutrient and reported great results, but it is far more expensive to get 150ppm YAN from fermaid O than it is to get the same YAN level from fermaid K.

The other huge benefit to fermaid O, from a meadmakers perspective, is that it reportedly takes less YAN for a good ferment when using more organic nitrogen. As an example you may only need 175ppm YAN with 50% being organic N to get the results of 225ppm YAN when there is more DAP and less organic N. these are not tested numbers, but they demonstrate what the documents claim about fermaid O, so that is a huge plus!

 

[seth8530]

I've got the lallamand study, and several others showing that amino acid metabolism is very important in fermentation aromas; basically each amino acid will yeild different aromatic compounds once metabolized, the ones specific to fermaid O are very positive once converted.
Yeast hulls are very useful when pushing the alcohol tolerance of yeast strains, they bind to certain fatty acids which will inhibit yeast metabolism. The stated alcohol tolerance of yeast is a combination of alcohol toxicity and the build up of these fatty acids which together slow the metabolic rate of the yeast and can make them poop out a little early.
I have found that 1g/gal will make the resultant mead a little drier in taste even if the gravity is the same, most of the times it will nock off a point or 2. When I have fermented meads with and without yeast hulls, the ones with will have the dry characteristic of one fermented with champagne yeast (just talking about how dry it tastes, not the esters or lack thereof). They also add a small amount of YAN, but not very much.

Overall, I like fermaid K and O very much, if I were fermenting higher YAN musts, I would probably use just the fermaid O, in meads it is quite difficult to get the YAN numbers and fermaid K is very useful, as is DAP.

Over on GotMead, someone did use fermaid O as his sole nutrient and reported great results, but it is far more expensive to get 150ppm YAN from fermaid O than it is to get the same YAN level from fermaid K.

The other huge benefit to fermaid O, from a meadmakers perspective, is that it reportedly takes less YAN for a good ferment when using more organic nitrogen. As an example you may only need 175ppm YAN with 50% being organic N to get the results of 225ppm YAN when there is more DAP and less organic N. these are not tested numbers, but they demonstrate what the documents claim about fermaid O, so that is a huge plus!

I agree with much of what you are saying however, I am not very knowledgeable about the use of yeast hulls. I saw a study from lallamand that seems to imply that fermaid O might be 4X as effective as DAP based nutrients. Apperently their is a lot more going on behind the curtains than just YAN. The one issue I have with O is that it does not have the nutrients that K does. If they made a vitamin infused O I would be in heaven. I agree fermaid O and K are both very good products. However, is fermaid O really that expensive in the big picture? I would not think cost would be a real determining factor when it comes to nutrients.

 

[Deezil]

I've got the lallamand study, and several others showing that amino acid metabolism is very important in fermentation aromas; basically each amino acid will yeild different aromatic compounds once metabolized, the ones specific to fermaid O are very positive once converted.

Yeast hulls are very useful when pushing the alcohol tolerance of yeast strains, they bind to certain fatty acids which will inhibit yeast metabolism. The stated alcohol tolerance of yeast is a combination of alcohol toxicity and the build up of these fatty acids which together slow the metabolic rate of the yeast and can make them poop out a little early.
I have found that 1g/gal will make the resultant mead a little drier in taste even if the gravity is the same, most of the times it will nock off a point or 2. When I have fermented meads with and without yeast hulls, the ones with will have the dry characteristic of one fermented with champagne yeast (just talking about how dry it tastes, not the esters or lack thereof). They also add a small amount of YAN, but not very much.

Overall, I like fermaid K and O very much, if I were fermenting higher YAN musts, I would probably use just the fermaid O, in meads it is quite difficult to get the YAN numbers and fermaid K is very useful, as is DAP.

Over on GotMead, someone did use fermaid O as his sole nutrient and reported great results, but it is far more expensive to get 150ppm YAN from fermaid O than it is to get the same YAN level from fermaid K.

The other huge benefit to fermaid O, from a meadmakers perspective, is that it reportedly takes less YAN for a good ferment when using more organic nitrogen. As an example you may only need 175ppm YAN with 50% being organic N to get the results of 225ppm YAN when there is more DAP and less organic N. these are not tested numbers, but they demonstrate what the documents claim about fermaid O, so that is a huge plus!

Can you share / link to the study about the amino acids? I'm interested

Glad to see you got my PM & chimed in here, Bob

FWIW, Bob's pretty on-point with the yeast hulls as they are also part of the protocol involved with restarting a stuck ferment. You introduce the yeast hulls to a stuck ferment to help bind up some of those fatty acids that the yeast produce which can become toxic and when you rack off the yeast hulls to repitch your yeast, they can live again and continue to work towards the ABV threshold. I havent used them much myself, but it's sound advice.

Thats interesting that they result in a drier palette, i wonder how those fatty acids play into the body of a wine

I've purchased both Fermaid-K and Fermaid-O myself, but since have only used the -O. All my ferments have ran fine thusfar, and I cant say its taken a whole lot extra nutrient compared to previous batches with generic/DAP-based nutrients, as far as the amount i've added. I believe theres some weight to the notion that organic nitrogen 'goes farther' than DAP-based nutrients

Another thing to be noted.. Fermaid-O is the one to use, if you're making melomels. From my experience, the added fruit usually provides enough vitamins and minerals to make up for the lack of any in the Fermaid-O; although this is more applicable to those mazers who add the fruit to primary.

I could see the use for Fermaid-K on a traditional or fruit-less mead, although i wont really know for sure until i make a 5-10 gallon batch later this fall

 

[Bob1016]

Wow! Those are really long posts to quote, sorry.
The study showing the four fold effectiveness is why I first bought it, it is clear to any one who tries to ferment pure table sugar that DAP is not enough, it will still stick, stink, and taste god awful. Vitamins are essential for all living creatures, but what vitamins are needed is different with respect to what creature. Roger morse was one of the first people I know of that determined what vitamins a are needed (he was working specifically with meads, but has been quoted in countless wine studies that focused on nutrients as well).
It's not that the fatty acids add something, it's that their removal allows the yeast to get a little more work done, it might not be much, but it is noticeable. Think about how sweet fructose is compared to glucose, and all wines will have fractions left, with yeast hulls the yeast can reduce the fractions even further.
I justify the use of DAP by thinking about grape musts, there are inorganic nitrogen components in grape musts therefore it is ok, but the more the yeast eat a healthy diet (organic N), the better I feel. Personal preference and ease really.
There are some show meads (no nutrients at all) that can rival some of the best SNA meads, if that's your technique, and you know how to use it more power to you. I find that as I experiment, I hone in on what works best for my techniques. I'm sure Brother Adams might love some of our modern meads, and I'm sure it would take him some time to try his own SNA techniques, but he might like his show meads better. Personal preferences, and learned experiences should guide us. That beeing said, I am terrible at show meads, and am not likely to give up SNA, but I will keep refining it as long as I can. Isn't that half the fun of any hobby?
The point is, never stop experimenting, and hopefully learning; I think we can all agree on that.