Got off the Phone with the Fermaid people

[Deezil]

What types of ‘fermentative advantages’ (source) does using Opti-White/-Red during fermentation contribute to a finished wine; do either product contribute any accountable amount of nitrogen within normal dosage parameters?

How about Booster Blanc/Rouge; I’ve seen all four of these products (Opti-White/-Red, Booster Blanc/Rouge) all classified in the ‘yeast nutrient’ category (source) – do these contribute any notable nitrogen to the fermentation?

Are there any other facets of these products that qualify them as 'nutrients', that I may be missing?

With yeast in mind - are there any charts/graphs comparing the various facets of the different yeast strains offered? I've seen charts for nitrogen needs (pg. 10), glycerol production (pg. 2), and maybe one or two others but they're still in the format used in the study & without knowing the 'common name', the information is of little use. Any charts or graphs that you could provide would be greatly appreciated.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Any chance this ever got anywhere?

That last paragraph.. I'd love those answers.. Talk about Christmas come early..

 

[seth8530]

Ahh, sorry Deezil, I meant to get back to you on that!

In order to answer your questions: Lallemand SIY products, including OptiRed, OptiWhite, OptiMUM White, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc are a minor source of organic nitrogen. Since all are composed of selected portions of inactivated yeast, the typical YAN contribution is 3mg/L per 10g/hL addition of product. The advantage for the product is not specifically to optimize fermentation kinetics, but on the overall quality of wine made. The SIY products contain different selected fractions of yeast which can contribute to structural and mouthfeel elements---including roundness, balance, mid-palate, color and ageability. They also make a wine more malolactic friendly for those wines where malolactic bacteria are to be inoculated. Each product has a different composition of selected fractions from different yeast sources—hence the various products available.

I attached our Lallemand fermentation catalogue—with the yeast chart on page 12-13 to indicate the various fermentation parameters. In addition, I added the updated version of the yeast varietal pairing information for style choice.

Its a partial answer anyways

 

[Deezil]

In order to answer your questions: Lallemand SIY products, including OptiRed, OptiWhite, OptiMUM White, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc are a minor source of organic nitrogen. Since all are composed of selected portions of inactivated yeast, the typical YAN contribution is 3mg/L per 10g/hL addition of product.

That's a pretty good answer, thanks for doing the asking!

 

[seth8530]

No problem, pretty much means we dont really need to consider SIY products as far as nutrients go..

However, due to an apparent publicly available data on YAN requirements for yeast.. (best I have seen indicates that they don't really benefit much after 270 mg/L and the fact that Scott labs recommends shooting for 350 mg/L I will be conservative and go for 350 mg/L on all of my fermentations.

On fruit/grape fermentations unless data is otherwise provided I will assume 100mg/L initial YAN. Which If I recall correctly means I need to add 6.25 grams of Fermaid O per liter of wine.

For things like mead and dragons blood I will of course assume 0 initial YAN and augment it up to 350 mg/L.. I will also consider finding a way to supplement essential vitamins for the yeasty beasties as well..... Goferm protect does have vitamins that yeast needs but I am not sure that it is enough for mead.

 

[Deezil]

No problem, pretty much means we dont really need to consider SIY products as far as nutrients go..

However, due to an apparent publicly available data on YAN requirements for yeast.. (best I have seen indicates that they don't really benefit much after 270 mg/L and the fact that Scott labs recommends shooting for 350 mg/L I will be conservative and go for 350 mg/L on all of my fermentations.

On fruit/grape fermentations unless data is otherwise provided I will assume 100mg/L initial YAN. Which If I recall correctly means I need to add 6.25 grams of Fermaid O per liter of wine.

For things like mead and dragons blood I will of course assume 0 initial YAN and augment it up to 350 mg/L.. I will also consider finding a way to supplement essential vitamins for the yeasty beasties as well..... Goferm protect does have vitamins that yeast needs but I am not sure that it is enough for mead.

I'll probably still calculate it, myself.

3mg/L per 10g/hL
3ppm per 1g/10L
3ppm per 1g / 2.641 gallons

I wanna say I've normally dosed about 7g per 5 gallons
Which is, 3.5g / 2.641 gallons, or close enough for me
So,

3ppm x 3.5 = another 10.5 ppm YAN

And considering I'm only working with honey for an added sugar source these days, I need all the YAN I can get. I'll take that 10.5ppm YAN

 

[seth8530]

Yep yep, BTW those numbers I crunched out were for femaid O... I should of made that explicit.

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

I wanna say I've normally dosed about 7g per 5 gallons

I have them packaged in 7gm's for a single batch.

 

[seth8530]

I have them packaged in 7gm's for a single batch.

Those numbers seem a little shy to me.. how much YAN are you trying to put in the wine? My assumed 250 mg/l yan boost gives me 6.25 g/l fermaid O or 118 grams per 5 gallon. Obviously the big question is how much YAN you are trying to contribute.... If you aim to add in 100 mg/l i get 47.34 grams needed in 5 gallons.... This is for fermaid O..

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

The package calls for 35 to 40 Grams per HL (hetalitre).
HL = 26.4 gallons.
35 gm Divided by 26.4 gallons = 1.32 gm per gallon.
1.32 X 6 gallons =7.92 gram per 6 gallon batch. Or 6.7 per 5 gallons, ie:7 gm per 5 gallons.
So yes almost 1 gram per batch shy.
Going by instructions on bag .

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

Those numbers seem a little shy to me.. how much YAN are you trying to put in the wine? My assumed 250 mg/l yan boost gives me 6.25 g/l fermaid O or 118 grams per 5 gallon. Obviously the big question is how much YAN you are trying to contribute.... If you aim to add in 100 mg/l i get 47.34 grams needed in 5 gallons.... This is for fermaid O..

you know where that get us....

118 grams in a lot. almost 4.25 oz
where are you getting your numbers?

 

[Deezil]

Sounds like Seth is forgetting a factor...
From page 3

Hi Seth,
Below is some YAN contribution information.

Fermaid K
YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L
YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 30mgN/L

Fermaid O
YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 10gN/L*
YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 12mgN/L*

*The organic nitrogen in Fermaid O is used very efficiently by the yeast (it's like feeding the yeast broccoli instead of a candy bar) so although the YAN contribution numbers look lower you can actually think of it as more like 3x the YAN contribution numbers listed (and 4x if you've used GoFerm during rehydration).

Let me know if you have any questions about all this.
Thanks!
--Brooke

So while you need 250 ppm (mg/l) of DAP, you'd only need ~100 ppm of organic nitrogen. So take that 6.25g/L of Fermaid-O & cut it down to about 2g/L..

If you add organic nitrogen in the same amounts that you add DAP, you'll grossly over-add YAN without realizing it (the numbers wont even tell you)

And Doug was talking about 7g packages of OptiRed, OptiWhite, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc

 

[seth8530]

you know where that get us....

118 grams in a lot. almost 4.25 oz
where are you getting your numbers?

We are talking about the same thing correct? Fermaid O?

Yeast are living organisms that are classified as a type of fungi. When treated well, they survive most conditions to which winemakers subject them. If the physical and nutritional needs of yeast are understood, they can be encouraged to perform at their peak while converting juice into wine. Adverse conditions can put a stress on yeast cells and hinder their performance. In some cases, yeast may even stop fermenting or create unpleasant flavors and/or aromas in the wine.

A major growth factor for a yeast cell is nitrogen. Yeast assimilable nitrogen (YAN) target levels for healthy fermentations vary by grape sugar content (°Brix) and maturity level. High Brix (°B) juice/must requires more nitrogen than low Brix must. For example, the 21°B must target YAN level is 200 mgN/L while a 27°B must target YAN level is 350 mgN/L.

Supplementation with Fermaid K, Fermaid O, Phosphate Titres and/or DAP in low and medium YAN musts is recommended. To optimize the nitrogen uptake during fermentation, use Go-Ferm or Go-Ferm Protect during yeast rehydration. Later, add Fermaid K or Fermaid O (plus Phosphate Titres) at 1/3 sugar depletion.

That is where I get my number of needing between 350 mg/L YAN. I then assume the must has a starting YAN of 100 mg/L ( fairly conservative because it can be higher... around 200ish mg/L)

So 350-100 =250mg/l

.3g fermaid O=12mg/l YAN

250/12=20.833

.3*20.833=6.25 g/L fermaid O

If I was given the YAN content of my must I would of course substitute that in to get a more accurate fermaid O dosing.

Sounds like Seth is forgetting a factor...
From page 3



So while you need 250 ppm (mg/l) of DAP, you'd only need ~100 ppm of organic nitrogen. So take that 6.25g/L of Fermaid-O & cut it down to about 2g/L..

If you add organic nitrogen in the same amounts that you add DAP, you'll grossly over-add YAN without realizing it (the numbers wont even tell you)

And Doug was talking about 7g packages of OptiRed, OptiWhite, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc

Deezil, I am aware of that however, I am not sure how accurate this claim is. It is in truth at least partially accurate I know that. But their is more to the story than fermentation rate. I left out an efficiency factor because I do not think it is clear exactly how much more efficient O is than DAP.

[img=http://s21.postimg.org/qq4q3ab7n/Fermentation_curve.jpg]

In the first picture you can see where they get their 4X more efficient claim. However, it is important to note that the chard must already had a pretty good nutrient load in it to start (220 mg/L) around 270 mg/L you start to see diminishing returns. So yes, it is clear that the organic nitrogen is more efficent, but I am not sure it is fair to claim it is 4X more efficent. To prove my point let us move to image 2.

[img=http://s21.postimg.org/6k184efk3/Pic2.jpg]

In this image you can see that once again the fermaid O is more efficient than the DAP source however it looks much closer to 2X more efficient. Obviously something is going on behind the scenes here. Also, their is more stuff that goes on with YAN than just fermentation rate.

I feel like it is safer to assume that Organic and Inorganic are just as efficient as each other when it comes to a multi year wine making investment such as a mead or grape wine.

One might be concerned about having too much YAN left over after fermentation however, these charts do not imply that the yeast assimilates less organic nitrogen than inorganic. Only that it can make due with less better with organic than inorganic.

So, all in all. I do not think it is incorrect to assume an efficiency boost, but I think it would be best to stay on the conservative side of the assumed value. I personally would not assume an efficiency gain of anything greater than 2X.

 

[Deezil]

It can only potentially reach 4x as efficient, when used with Go-Ferm.
Without Go-Ferm, it can only potentially be 3x as efficient.

To me, it doesnt seem as if the claim is affected so much by the starting YAN content of a must, as it is by everything else that we cant calculate for.. Macro- and micronutrients, vitamins, trace elements, none of these are computed for. These are what is present in Go-Ferm, and these are what are lacking in both Fermaid-O & pure DAP. It seems any variation in the efficiency, would come from the supplementing or lack there of, of these various elements in the must itself, prior to any additions.

Obviously a grape must loaded with micro- and macronutrients is going to allow for better efficiency than say a traditional mead would. Yet in both cases, Fermaid-O would still outshine anything DAP-based, and although the efficiency would be difficult for us to calculate as home winemakers, my feeling is it would still be apparent.

This is what prompted me down the line of thinking, wondering what the SIY products brought to the fermentation. They bring micro- and macronutrients alongside their minimal YAN additions.

I'm interested in seeing how your opinion on this particular aspect of all this research, changes, as you become more exposed to organic nitrogen fermentations. I have a feeling that you'll soon have more faith in these efficiencies

 

[seth8530]

Deezil, I was not saying the actual efficiency was a function of the starting YAN. I meant to point out that the apparent efficiency that one might gleam from that chart might be misleading. If you look at that chart you can see that their is no difference between adding 5mg/L organic and 20 mg/L DAP. It is highly possible that it only appears this way because with the addition of 5 mg/L they hit the asymptotic limit for that yeas strain's YAN needs.


I do not doubt that Organic is more efficient than inorganic, my question is how much more efficient is it?

BTW, where did you find that SIY products have micro nutrients? That could prove useful for a mead....

 

[Deezil]

From Scotts Lab Handbook 2013

NATURAL YEAST DERIVATIVE NUTRIENTS

Natural yeast derivative nutrients are highly specialized inactivated strains of enological yeast. These yeast strains are grown in a controlled environment and harvested at the end of their growth phase. At this stage the yeast has produced a range of enologically attractive polysaccharides that are more reactive compared to the polysaccharides that are released during the yeast autolysis phase.

Our inactivated yeasts are derived from the biomass of whole yeast cells and have
been treated to suppress their fermentative capacity. Each of our natural yeast derivative nutrients can be differentiated by the strains of yeast used, the level of refinement of the yeast cells, their polysaccharide contribution, as well as the presence of specific fractions such as glutathione. These enological tools contribute certain fermentative advantages together with significant wine quality improvement. Used alone, however, they should not be viewed as a substitute for the complete range of fermentation nutrition products listed elsewhere in this Handbook.

From an earlier post of a Lallemand response:

In order to answer your questions: Lallemand SIY products, including OptiRed, OptiWhite, OptiMUM White, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc are a minor source of organic nitrogen. Since all are composed of selected portions of inactivated yeast, the typical YAN contribution is 3mg/L per 10g/hL addition of product. The advantage for the product is not specifically to optimize fermentation kinetics, but on the overall quality of wine made. The SIY products contain different selected fractions of yeast which can contribute to structural and mouthfeel elements---including roundness, balance, mid-palate, color and ageability. They also make a wine more malolactic friendly for those wines where malolactic bacteria are to be inoculated. Each product has a different composition of selected fractions from different yeast sources—hence the various products available.

I attached our Lallemand fermentation catalogue—with the yeast chart on page 12-13 to indicate the various fermentation parameters. In addition, I added the updated version of the yeast varietal pairing information for style choice.

So maybe calling them nutrients was the wrong term, they're technically yeast fractions. The differences in the products, they mention are from different fractions of different yeast strains - and those are things I'd still like to know.

The amounts of polysaccharides, among other things, while not "nutrients" per say, can have an influence on the environment, so while they wont come out and state these products optimize fermentation kinetics directly, by altering the environment, they must optimize it to a certain extent or we wouldn't see the changes that these products bring about.

If you notice, most of these products are recommended to be added either early in the fermentation, or towards the end.. But rarely are they recommended to be added during bulk aging. There's something to that, I think. What all that is, is another facet of this same question mark.

 

[seth8530]

Yeah, I agree nutrient might not be a good word for it. I would not be surprised however if they help a difficult ferment. I am however, more interested in those non nutrient based effects they are supposed to have on the wine. They seem really promising.

One thing I have considered doing is adding ML nutrient to the start of a mead to give it some micro nutrient. Before I consider doing this though I need to make sure it has all the right stuff for it. Another possibility is using Go germ as a must addition as well as a re hydration nutrient to help make a mead must more yummy for yeast... Something I will need to read into before I try it though.

 

[Deezil]

Hey Seth,
Are you still in communication with the folks at Lallemand/Scotts Lab?

Hi Seth,
Below is some YAN contribution information.

Fermaid K
YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L
YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 30mgN/L

Fermaid O
YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 10gN/L*
YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 12mgN/L*

*The organic nitrogen in Fermaid O is used very efficiently by the yeast (it's like feeding the yeast broccoli instead of a candy bar) so although the YAN contribution numbers look lower you can actually think of it as more like 3x the YAN contribution numbers listed (and 4x if you've used GoFerm during rehydration).

Let me know if you have any questions about all this.
Thanks!
--Brooke

If you are, can you put in a request for information like that bolded, but for Fermaid A? Or is it already around here somewhere?

I've started another thread about Yeast Nutrients, and its basically a summary of everything I've learned thusfar (including a large majority of the information in this thread) but I'm still not satisfied with it, so it's undergoing transformations still.. I'd like to expand to add Fermaid-A, as well as any information un-coverable as to the composition of Go-Ferm - any macro- or micro-nutrients within, or yeast fractions it contains...

Still gathering information on Go-Ferm, so I havent really identified what questions are worth of pestering Lallemand/Scotts Lab with yet

 

[seth8530]

Hey Seth,
Are you still in communication with the folks at Lallemand/Scotts Lab?



If you are, can you put in a request for information like that bolded, but for Fermaid A? Or is it already around here somewhere?

I've started another thread about Yeast Nutrients, and its basically a summary of everything I've learned thusfar (including a large majority of the information in this thread) but I'm still not satisfied with it, so it's undergoing transformations still.. I'd like to expand to add Fermaid-A, as well as any information un-coverable as to the composition of Go-Ferm - any macro- or micro-nutrients within, or yeast fractions it contains...

Still gathering information on Go-Ferm, so I havent really identified what questions are worth of pestering Lallemand/Scotts Lab with yet

I am not presently in comunication with them but I managed to find this..


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:gEnkFfINltAJww.lallemandwine.com/IMG/pdf_Information_Sheet_-_Nutrient_-_Fermaid_A_-_090123.pdf+fermaid+A&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh8VAfaPpjIfX5hrNHcVcwhJaUy73ffpCg-9oO1C1bUcaP9u7GPUOT7SqCm6Eg8zpURMcFCwvICnEMiyBnvKOF7Eb-gskAS-zXzz9L4yRT6wKbCguoSePAYaWGpt8Rj9RvxzfVZ&sig=AHIEtbQGEFPMTvbhH3nV4KgAgMIKf_v1MQ

For wine applications, the recommended dose is up to 30g/hl, commonly between 20-25g/hl per addition.

A 30g/hl dose will provide the must with a Total YAN content of 36-37 mg/L (of which 5-6 mg/L is α-amino

nitrogen).

So .3g/L yields 36-37 mg/L YAN with around 1/6 of it being organic.

 

[seth8530]

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pdf/awri_nitrogen_management_report_22.pdf

If you are interested give this guy a read. Pretty interesting discussion about how differing amounts of YAN can contribute different armoma characteristics. Too much is almost just as bad as too little. This article was geared towards DAP usage but it seems from what they have studied that somewhere around 320 mg/L seems to be the optimal amount of YAN when you consider things such as aromatics.

My current thoughts on Fermaid O usage for grape wine must leads me to unless I am given an initial YAN concentration assume around 150 mg/L and add up until I hit 320 mg/L . I am also considering adding on a 33% efficiency gain for using Fermaid O vs DAP based nutrients.

Maybe if I get bored I will make a YAN calculator. However, my past forays into making calculators has lead me to believe that I am the only person who will ever use it.

 

[seth8530]

Btw, it should be noted that this seems to agree with scot labs advice on overall YAN needed.