when good wines gone bad

[LoneStarLori]

That is one awesome basement! Complete with a tasting room and everything. Joe you must live down there 95% of your waking hours. I know I would.
We don't have basements down here so all I have it my kitchen and one of the spare bedrooms for storing all my tools and carboys. I feel so under privileged.

 

[sdelli]

Very nice Joe!

 

[bkisel]

"Look! It's moving. It's sha — it's... it's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving, it's alive! It's alive, it's alive, it's alive! It's ALIVE!"

Nice basement setup.

 

[joeswine]

muscato forward

the process continued.. next time out will be filtering and adding the chems. ready for bottling

 

[joeswine]

Muscato continued

PART 2..............

 

[joeswine]

Muscato moving forward




REVIEW THE PROCESS NEXT WEEK WE BOTTLE.

 

[beggarsu]

I'm making the coffee port - this is day 7.

Maybe someone covered this.. the instruction say 10-14 days in the primary and I'm using a wine making primary - maybe it's 10 gal though I never used it full with a lid lots of headspace for this one.

SO don't I run the risk of oxidization by letting it stay in there longer than 7 days (which is the usual instruction and in fact RJ Spagnols old instruction?

Or is that not a real concern for only 10-14 days?


Maybe I should transfer it to an airlock system today?

 

[joeswine]

beggarus

QUESTION,YOUR MAKING THE CRU, coffee port right?

QUESTION,WHAT IS YOUR SG ,NOW?

QUESTION,DESCRIBE FOR ME ,WHAT TYPE OF FERMENTER YOUR USING?
I HAVE MADE THIS KIT TWICE.

 

[beggarsu]

QUESTION,YOUR MAKING THE CRU, coffee port right?

QUESTION,WHAT IS YOUR SG ,NOW?

QUESTION,DESCRIBE FOR ME ,WHAT TYPE OF FERMENTER YOUR USING?
I HAVE MADE THIS KIT TWICE.

1. yes

2 Doesn't matter my question is for regardless of SG. That's not answering the q of the danger of oxidization.

For this batch for any batch. Regardless of whether there is fermentation in any batch I've ever made - they are not visibly active after 7 days which sort of indicates put in airlock as whatever is going on it's not enough to push out enough co2 to stop air oxidization - in any batch.

The spagnols 14 day thingee is new instructions and they have it for all their kits. It doesn't make sense to me at all the fermentation after day 7 in 5 kits so far is minute or small even though it may be ongoing - it seems that should be finished in a airlock carboy..


3. - a 10-12 gal wine primary fermenter bought form my wine making store - plastic with lid lots of headspace with only 12 l in it.

4 so if you made this kit twice how long did you leave it in an open non-airlock primary if at all?


Bonus answer:

Never heard of Zesting.

...
Took the S.G.
The S.G.'s at what someone else did their racking to secondary for Coffee Port. But thinking this out - I think that's not the point. I think the only hydrometer needed here is the eye.
If the liquid is visibly still or relatively inactive then I think it's airlock time. There is no more significant outgoing gas to keep the oxygen away - the airlock can handle any future gas escape and protect the wine
it just seems foolish to leave it in a huge open airspace at that point..

 

[joeswine]

Variables

THE SG is the controlling factor, every wine I have made has been in a open vat, just like a real winery, weather it's fresh fruit,juices or kitS ,that's the way I do it, I have learned to control the process and not let the process control me, you asked me a question I gave you my answer. FOLLOW the process of the coffee port on this thread and the AMAROME as well as the moscato and caramel Port and SANGIOVESEyou will see how it's done.........................................

 

[beggarsu]

you asked me a question I gave you my answer.

I don't see your answer anywhere. My question was will the wine oxidize in an open primary regardless of S.G. after it stops visibly frothing.
I answered your questions but why? - you didn't follow up. Why did you ask me about what kind of primary I had?

The S.G. is not oxidization. It doesn't measure oxidization rate.
Knowing a number in a mechanical way is not understanding the process of oxidization.

Yes, I know - you measure the S.G and when it reaches and stays at a certain point you transfer the wine. It works and that's it.
But I actually want to actually understand the mechanics of oxidization, and the details - oxidization rate for wines in different states, in different exposure surfaces so I can know for all circumstances.

As that all may be it just may be that it takes a lot longer to oxidize in an open primary and therefore there is no danger regardless whither it has stopped fermenting at day 7 or not. It sounds that way as your narrative of using open vats - in that case the S.G. is not a factor.

-----
Edit
This:

After the primary fermentation, in which large amounts of protective carbon dioxide gas (CO2) are produced, you must take precautions to minimize exposure of wine to air.

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb0719/eb0719.html

'primary fermentation' ie the desired S.G. is not yet achieved -Anyway I put my nose in the bucket today Day 9 - wow !- there is obviously still a wall of CO2 so I let it go on though I could transfer it but It's going to 3 different jugs ((4.5l X 2) + 3 l)) so there is no point in bothering right now and disturbing the ferment as a unit which is obviously ongoing and probably the S.G will go down another littlel bit..

---

I have worked out an answer as in my previous post.
Thanks anyway.

 

[joeswine]

Muscato moving forward

although, it's been a while since we started this project we've done a lot in wine time behind the scene's as you can tell if you follow us..........2 weeks we bottle this wine, my thoughts at present is this.


WE have tasted it even though it's very young, it lacks character as well as ,not a true moscato taste so what to do, I think I'm going to put the zest of 1 grape fruit in and 1 orange, this then should pick up the brightness in the finis as well as give it a hint of sunshine as I remember a good MUSCATO has,bright,crisp and tasty.so follow us and we will help resurrect this kit and make it a wonderful wine to address at anytime.

​

Here’s the process:
Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070.
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy.
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir.
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky.
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!

​

Here’s the process:
Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070.
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy.
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir.
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky.
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!

 

[joeswine]

Muscato cont.

MUSCATO PART 2.................PATIENTS.. IN 2 WEEKS WE WILL BOTTLE AFTER INFUSION OF GRAPEFRUIT AND ORANGE ZEST..SOUND TASTY?

 

[Vpilieci]

Can I ask.... I've always found my wines to be a bit thin. I usually make a Cab./Sauv. (55 litres). Is there something I could add to add to mouthfeel after primary fermentation has completed?

 

[joeswine]

Cab and texture

YES,THERE ARE ITEMS THAT WHEN APPLIED CAN PRODUCE A GOOD MOUTH FEEL AS WELL AS TASTE ,WITH THE CABS,YOU SHOULD FIRST ADD A FPAC OF HAND PRESSED GRAPES WE WILL BE DOING ONE ON THIS THREAD SHORTLY SO YOU CAN RE- VIEW FIRST HAND THE PROCESS,SECONDLY ADDING OAK IN BOTH WOOD AND TANNINS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN BOTH THE PRIMARY AS WELL AS THE SECONDARY WE'LL ALSO SHOW THIS AS WELL,SO STAY WITH THIS US AND FOLLOW ALL THE THREADS ,AT PRESENT YOU CAN REVIEW THE SANGIOVESE THREAD AND SEE THE PROCESS..OK

 

[LoneStarLori]

I just finished my Sangiovese using the raisin and tannin tweak and it is awesome! Perfectly balanced and great body.

 

[eblasmn9]

I just finished my Sangiovese using the raisin and tannin tweak and it is awesome! Perfectly balanced and great body.

This is good to hear. I bought this sangiovese kit and plan to do Joeswine's tweaks on it January 1 of next year. Looking forward to it!

 

[Vpilieci]

YES,THERE ARE ITEMS THAT WHEN APPLIED CAN PRODUCE A GOOD MOUTH FEEL AS WELL AS TASTE ,WITH THE CABS,YOU SHOULD FIRST ADD A FPAC OF HAND PRESSED GRAPES WE WILL BE DOING ONE ON THIS THREAD SHORTLY SO YOU CAN RE- VIEW FIRST HAND THE PROCESS,SECONDLY ADDING OAK IN BOTH WOOD AND TANNINS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN BOTH THE PRIMARY AS WELL AS THE SECONDARY WE'LL ALSO SHOW THIS AS WELL,SO STAY WITH THIS US AND FOLLOW ALL THE THREADS ,AT PRESENT YOU CAN REVIEW THE SANGIOVESE THREAD AND SEE THE PROCESS..OK

So, wait ... you are saying I should add the oak chips to primary? Can I leave them in for 6 months???

 

[sdelli]

I would be carefull leaving chips in for too long... They will break down and deteriate quicker then a spiral... I tend to only use them in the primary... Then go to spirals.

 

[Vpilieci]

how long should they be in primary?? I am using juice, not making this from a kit.