WineXpert Chemical odor?

[bovinewines]

Is it just me or does the WineExpert kits tend to give off a "chemical" smell?


Is this unique to the WE kits or do other kits do the same thing?


I've got this in my Riesling and a hint of it in my Shiraz...maybe its just me being impatient and it'll all eventually settle out?

 

[laneygirl]

Where are you in the process? Or are you speaking of bottled wine?

 

[bovinewines]

I've got one wine in the bottle and another one in a carboy aging.


I had my enology class try the Riesling today and someone thought I had a hint of H2S going on (hydrogen sulfide); although it doesn't smell like rotten eggs...it simply smells like it was over sulfited (is that a word?).


I'm thinking what I'll need to do is when I rack my Shiraz off the lees I need to sorta try and areate it and let it wait (settle) before Ibottle (I know O2 is bad..but in this case it might help).


Thoughts?

 

[Wade E]

How much k-meta in total from start to finish did you add to the batch bottled and how long was it in the bottle. same goes with the Shiraz. Did you add just 1/4 tsp at bottling and getting this smell per 6 gallons. Ive added that MANY times with no problems. You are not adding it any any other intervals are you?

 

[bovinewines]

Riesling:
On the Riesling...I followed all of the directions/additions as instructed by the instructions. That would be the #2 (metabisulphite) and #3 (sorbate) packages and then the 1.5 grams right at bottling.


I wasn't keeping as good of records at this point as I am with the Shriaz.


Shiraz:
K-meta: 4g
K-sorbate: 5.5g
Both added during clearing/fining stage.


I'm starting to wonder if I should be rinsing everything before using it after I have sanitized...although I can't image any risisdual SO2 from sanitizing would cause this level of change.

 

[Wade E]

The residual should not make a difference unless it was puddled quite a bit. I am mathematically challenged when it comes to grams to tbs but if the sanitized solution equals 3 tbs. to 1 gallon then that is correct. How long have these been bottled since the addition of k-meta and was it stirred in well before bottling?

 

[Wade E]

Just reading "The Wine Maker's Answer Book" and it says that 3 grams per gallon is the correct ratio for sanitizing solution.

 

[Wade E]

Bovine, do you have a S02 test kit. I would be curious as to how much free So2 is in this batch. As I read this book it tells you to back off S02 when your wine is clear and to monitor it without adding blindly. This is a great book to have especially if you are making it from grapes and not kits but there is much to learn either way.

 

[Wade E]

Okay, as Im lying in bed trying to sleep something dawned on me, I believe and like I said, my math with conversions is not good but, I think 4 grams of pot. meta sounds like a very lot and think that 1/4 gram is more along the lines of what the right amount should be which would also make me believe that the sorbate might be in excess also.

 

[grapeman]

According to the Sulfite Calculator, 4 grams of K-Meta gives 100 ppm free SO2, probably higher than needed normally and could give off some odors.



<BIG>Sulphite Addition Table</BIG>
<DIV align=center>Sulphite Source: Potassium Metabisulphite
Sulphite Form: Powder
Batch Size: 6 U.S. Gallons


<TABLE cellPadding=5 width="75%" align=center border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TH>Required SO<SUB>2</SUB>
(mg/L)</TH>
<TH>Addition (g)</TH>
<TH>Addition (tsp)</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>0</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.00</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.00</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>5</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.20</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.03</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>10</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.39</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.06</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>15</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.59</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.10</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>20</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.79</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.13</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>25</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.99</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.16</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>30</TD>
<TD align=middle>1.18</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.19</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>35</TD>
<TD align=middle>1.38</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.22</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>40</TD>
<TD align=middle>1.58</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.25</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>45</TD>
<TD align=middle>1.77</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.29</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>50</TD>
<TD align=middle>1.97</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.32</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>55</TD>
<TD align=middle>2.17</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.35</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>60</TD>
<TD align=middle>2.36</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.38</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>65</TD>
<TD align=middle>2.56</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.41</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>70</TD>
<TD align=middle>2.76</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.44</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>75</TD>
<TD align=middle>2.96</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.48</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>80</TD>
<TD align=middle>3.15</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.51</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>85</TD>
<TD align=middle>3.35</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.54</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>90</TD>
<TD align=middle>3.55</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.57</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>95</TD>
<TD align=middle>3.74</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.60</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD align=middle>100</TD>
<TD align=middle>3.94</TD>
<TD align=middle>0.64</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

Table created by Sulphite Table Generator on December 4, 2007
www.fermsoft.com


5.5 grams of Sorbate is about right-maybe even a little low. I'm not sure of the density of the sorbate you have, but atypical Sorbate calls for 1/2 tsp per gallon which is 3 teasoons per 6 gallons. 5.5.g grams converts out to 1.159 teaspoons with an average density powder(but they vary a lot accounting for the difference here). Always use the amount recommended by the manufacturer.

Edited by: appleman

 

[masta]

Hold on guys and gals! The amount of K-meta and K-sorbate bovinewines posted was the normal additions provide by the kit manufacturer in this case Winexpert. Per Tim Vandergrift of WE....Making the kit per the included instructions without adding any extra K-meta will produce a wine at bottling with a free SO2 level of 16-20 ppm. The extra 1/4 tsp of K-meta for extended aging as per the instructions willincrease the free SO2 to a level of 30-35 ppm.These numbers aremuch lower (up to 75%) than what is allowed in wines produced commercially in the Canada and theUnited States.The kit manufactures have done extensive trials and testing and produce millions of kits so lets put some trust in their guidance.
Having said this my opinion is the chemical odor is not due to high sulfite levelif you followed the directions but mainly from a wine that is very young.Give the wine some time to age and in the case of the red properly decant before serving.Edited by: masta

 

[grapeman]

I agree the smells are probably from the wine being young. I am questioning the accuracy of something here. I would suspect that Winexpert has the right facts and figures and if they include a 4 gram packet in the kit, that should be correct. I question the accuracy of the Sulfite Calculator program - that is where I got those results from. I input 0 starting free S02 with the ending s02 as 100 ppm and got 3.94 grams addition to 6 gallons.

 

[masta]

Which Sulfite Calculator program are you referring to?

 

[grapeman]

Which Sulfite Calculator program are you referring to?

Sulfite Calculator Ver. 3.0 from Fermsoft.com. It is also in the Amphora software from them which is a winery and vineyard tracking software. They both give the same results.

 

[masta]

I have spent many hours trying to understand this and my head still spins at times

but based purely on the numbers:


4 grams of K-meta contains 57.6% SO2 content.
4000 mg x 57.6% = 2304 mg of Total SO2
2304/23L = 100.17 mg/L or ppm Total SO2


So the sulfite calculator is correct in the amount of Total SO2 but doesn't take into account the amount of the total SO2 that becomes bound to the compounds in the wine and is lost to exposure to oxygen when stirring, racking, transferring, and bottling and not available as Free SO2.


These losses due to binding andexposure to oxygenof the Total sulfite thatis addedis a huge variable and from what I see are not built into the calculators. Therefore when you use these calculators the assumption has to be there is zero loss or binding.Edited by: masta

 

[bovinewines]

I would agree with that Masta. We actually talked about that yesterday in our Microbial Analysis.


If you have the ability...they had recommended measuring your total and free SO2, figure out your calculations on how much to add and then test total and free SO2 after the addition.


Doesn't do any good if all of it gets bound and you have 0 free SO2.


Thanks!

 

[masta]

Did they provide any thought on how much of the total SO2 becomes bound? I have been using a rough estimate of 50% but I know from my research that this can be a huge variation depending on many factors.

 

[bovinewines]

I think that's why they recommend testing before AND after...that there's too many factors/things that the SO2 could get bound up to....(microbes, bad yeast, etc).

 

[Wade E]

Im so glad I was wrong on this!

 

[masta]

Im so glad I was wrong on this!

Nobody was wrong at all...... I read all this stuff and crunch numbers because I want to see it work on paper and sometimes forget many folks make awesome wines that age beautifully without ever understanding the technical side of sulfites let alone test for them!


Just don't stay awake at night thinking about it!