First-time winemaking - Want to make a (Great!) Riesling

[RylanJacobs]

Hi all,

Long-time lurker, looking to finally take the plunge. I want to make the best riesling I possibly can. My taste leans towards Kabinett's from Germany. Meanwhile, my wife loves Chateau Ste. Michelle's Harvest Select
I'd like to post a few questions, and feel free to chime in with any information you may have. Feel free to answer as many, or as little, questions as you'd like. I appreciate any help you may have.

I've practically memorized MoreWine's - Guide to White Winemaking. I feel like I have a good academic understanding of winemaking, and am ready to get some experience.

Question 1:
(Probably the dumbest) Do I need to buy a press? I don't currently own one, and do not live near a place where I could rent one. Is there an alternative to a traditional press for home winemaking? I suspect it may be fully required if I buy fresh grapes.

Question 2:
Best place to source riesling grapes? I'm happy to go with a kit if that will make something worthwhile. I've had my eye on WineExpert's Classic Washington Riesling. Anyone have any comments on that kit? I've also had my eye on a frozen pail from White Salmon Vineyard riesling at BrehmVineyards.com. Any opinions between the kit and the pail of frozen grapes?


Question 3:
MoreWine's - Guide to White Winemaking recommends ambient temp during fermentation between 55-65 degrees. I've removed shelves from my cellar to make room for some carboys. The cellar is temp-controlled to 60 degrees year-round. The WineExpert riesling kit recommends ambient temps >70 degrees. If that's the case, I can just leave the carboys in a closet upstairs. Any opinions on what is best? I am under the impression that cooler temps allow for more subtle/delicate flavors to express themselves.

Question 4:
Bulk-aging timeline. The kits say it can be bottled in like 6 weeks. I'm thinking I'd like to age for at least 6-9 months, maybe even longer. If I chose a kit wine, would extended aging make a difference in the quality of the final product? I know if would for fresh grapes. Not sure about kits.

I suppose I'll have a lot more questions in the coming weeks/months. I want to thank all of you for any advice you may have. It's been a joy to read this forum over the last couple years.

 

[Ohio Bob]

So your jumping back and forth between grapes and kits?

Since white wines do not need the skins, actually don’t want the skins, you may be better off sourcing juice buckets. Buckets are usually balanced for Brix and pH. Just add the yeast of your choice.

I ferment my Riesling in my wine cellar, I’ve started one at 60F, even though the yeast instructions said don’t ferment below 64F. In my opinion colder I’d better for whites to preserve the aromatics.

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT!

Question 1:
(Probably the dumbest) Do I need to buy a press? I don't currently own one, and do not live near a place where I could rent one. Is there an alternative to a traditional press for home winemaking? I suspect it may be fully required if I buy fresh grapes.

None of your questions are dumb. You're a beginner -- if you knew all the answers you wouldn't be a beginner.

As Bob noted, a press is only necessary if you're using grapes. Personally, for whites, get juice if you can. Crushing and pressing can be a lot of work, and for whites, unless you grow your own grapes, you're best served by not mucking with grapes.

Conversely, if you branch into red grapes, then you need a press.

Question 2:
Best place to source riesling grapes? I'm happy to go with a kit if that will make something worthwhile. I've had my eye on WineExpert's Classic Washington Riesling. Anyone have any comments on that kit? I've also had my eye on a frozen pail from White Salmon Vineyard riesling at BrehmVineyards.com. Any opinions between the kit and the pail of frozen grapes?

I agree with Bob that juice buckets are a good choice, and you can get frozen juice buckets year around. Someone else will need to chime in with the URLs of the sources.

For kits? I have experience with and recommend Winexpert, R J Spagnols, and Finer Wine Kits. WE and RJS kits are good quality and shelf stable. FWK is available only through labelpeelers.com, and the juice/concentrate is not pasteurized so it's not shelf stable. The kits arrive cold and you either start the kit, refrigerate the bag, or freeze it.

Question 3:
MoreWine's - Guide to White Winemaking recommends ambient temp during fermentation between 55-65 degrees. I've removed shelves from my cellar to make room for some carboys. The cellar is temp-controlled to 60 degrees year-round. The WineExpert riesling kit recommends ambient temps >70 degrees. If that's the case, I can just leave the carboys in a closet upstairs. Any opinions on what is best? I am under the impression that cooler temps allow for more subtle/delicate flavors to express themselves.

Kits are designed so that beginners with no experienced help can produce a good result 100% of the time. A warmer temperature helps ensure a fast and steady ferment, so kit instructions recommend > 70 F.

Fermenting colder helps produce fruitier wines. Fermenting at 60 F will normally be slower, but if you have a good starter, the ferment should be steady. The following link is the process I use for creating an overnight yeast starter, which produces a solid start.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
A lot of white wine makers will suggest you first rack when the SG is 1.020, and move the wine from a bucket to a carboy. It's supposed to help preserve aromatics. If you have a 23 liter carboy, do NOT top up at this time, as you want space as the must is producing a lot of CO2, so headspace helps prevent a volcano from forming in your carboy. You don't need to top up until after the wine has cleared.

Question 4:
Bulk-aging timeline. The kits say it can be bottled in like 6 weeks. I'm thinking I'd like to age for at least 6-9 months, maybe even longer. If I chose a kit wine, would extended aging make a difference in the quality of the final product? I know if would for fresh grapes. Not sure about kits.

During fermentation, ignore the timeline. Trust your hydrometer to tell you when to do things.

Post-fermentation, treat all durations as a minimum value, e.g., instead of "7 day" treat it as "at least 7 days". Yeast are notorious for not following a calendar.

I generally recommend ~1 month for fermentation and clearing, and then a minimum of 3 months for bulk aging. During it's first months, wine goes though continuous chemical changes. The heavier the wine, the more changes that take longer. Giving the wine time in bulk enables it to go through those changes as a single unit, so you get consistent bottles. Plus if there's sediment still in suspension, it has time to drop.

I rarely bottle a wine before 4 months of age (1 + 3 bulk aging), and for most whites and light reads, it's often 4 to 6 months. Heavier whites (some Chardonnay) and medium reds are bottled at 6 to 9 months, and heavy reds at 9 to 12+ months.


One of the difficult things for a beginner is that there are usually more than one valid answer to a question, and those answers can contradict each other and yet all be valid. Understand "why" people do what they do and this will help you decide what you should do. Why is far more important than what or how.

Also, ask a question of 10 winemakers, you'll get at least 11 answers ......

 

[wood1954]

Welcome to WMT!


None of your questions are dumb. You're a beginner -- if you knew all the answers you wouldn't be a beginner.

As Bob noted, a press is only necessary if you're using grapes. Personally, for whites, get juice if you can. Crushing and pressing can be a lot of work, and for whites, unless you grow your own grapes, you're best served by not mucking with grapes.

Conversely, if you branch into red grapes, then you need a press.


I agree with Bob that juice buckets are a good choice, and you can get frozen juice buckets year around. Someone else will need to chime in with the URLs of the sources.

For kits? I have experience with and recommend Winexpert, R J Spagnols, and Finer Wine Kits. WE and RJS kits are good quality and shelf stable. FWK is available only through labelpeelers.com, and the juice/concentrate is not pasteurized so it's not shelf stable. The kits arrive cold and you either start the kit, refrigerate the bag, or freeze it.


Kits are designed so that beginners with no experienced help can produce a good result 100% of the time. A warmer temperature helps ensure a fast and steady ferment, so kit instructions recommend > 70 F.

Fermenting colder helps produce fruitier wines. Fermenting at 60 F will normally be slower, but if you have a good starter, the ferment should be steady. The following link is the process I use for creating an overnight yeast starter, which produces a solid start.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
A lot of white wine makers will suggest you first rack when the SG is 1.020, and move the wine from a bucket to a carboy. It's supposed to help preserve aromatics. If you have a 23 liter carboy, do NOT top up at this time, as you want space as the must is producing a lot of CO2, so headspace helps prevent a volcano from forming in your carboy. You don't need to top up until after the wine has cleared.


During fermentation, ignore the timeline. Trust your hydrometer to tell you when to do things.

Post-fermentation, treat all durations as a minimum value, e.g., instead of "7 day" treat it as "at least 7 days". Yeast are notorious for not following a calendar.

I generally recommend ~1 month for fermentation and clearing, and then a minimum of 3 months for bulk aging. During it's first months, wine goes though continuous chemical changes. The heavier the wine, the more changes that take longer. Giving the wine time in bulk enables it to go through those changes as a single unit, so you get consistent bottles. Plus if there's sediment still in suspension, it has time to drop.

I rarely bottle a wine before 4 months of age (1 + 3 bulk aging), and for most whites and light reads, it's often 4 to 6 months. Heavier whites (some Chardonnay) and medium reds are bottled at 6 to 9 months, and heavy reds at 9 to 12+ months.


One of the difficult things for a beginner is that there are usually more than one valid answer to a question, and those answers can contradict each other and yet all be valid. Understand "why" people do what they do and this will help you decide what you should do. Why is far more important than what or how.

Also, ask a question of 10 winemakers, you'll get at least 11 answers ......

Great reply, that should really help any beginner

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome aboard!

 

[ChuckD]

Welcome… I think Brian covered it!

 

[vinny]

I agree with Bob that juice buckets are a good choice, and you can get frozen juice buckets year around.

SO, I am 18 months into this now and have made 40 wines (consider that a warning if you will!). Probably 50/50 country wines vs kits, and I have had 1000 questions along the way. I just did 3 juice buckets and I feel that I have a lot more to know and DO to finish them over a kit.

I might be wrong, but the juice pails seem to be more unbalanced TASTING after initial ferment. This may just mean they are going to take longer to come together. It may also be that they come together more notably in the initial changes, but I also have to decide how I want to finish them. Oaking, etc.

I am only weighing in here to see what the experienced guys have to offer based on my thoughts. There is no reason not to start with grapes if that is where your comfort levels are, but that's a ton of work along with all the other points. I spent hours racking my buckets and moving other wines around today, there is plenty to do without jumping into grapes.

With the want to make a GREAT wine for the first wine, where does everyone weigh in on Finer Wine Kits? I am thinking best of both worlds, not pasturized, better quality juice than a shelf stable kit, but still manufacturer balanced with oak and other finishing flavors decided.

Just a little fool proofing on the first round to ensure that confidence is built. Once there is a general understanding then juice is an option to reach higher.

If you said I want to make sure I make a good wine I likely would have had a different first thought, but I am just thinking to offer the best chance to hit the bar you have set, an FWK might make it easier to achieve.

I have made 3 whites. Pinot Gris, Pinot Grigio, and a Chardonnay. I was talked into the Chardonnay with a taste test. It was the highest end Vineco limited edition kit available. It was very good. The other kits were also higher end, but they are my least favorite of all of the kits I have done. Very drinkable, but they lack the wow factor I was expecting. It may be my tastes, but I feel the bar is harder to hit with a white, so maybe an FWK kit that has impressed members here would be a safe starting point?

Just the thoughts of a guy that knows there are a bunch of juice bucket questions getting asked here shortly. 'Cause, well, I need answers.

 

[winemaker81]

I might be wrong, but the juice pails seem to be more unbalanced TASTING after initial ferment. This may just mean they are going to take longer to come together. It may also be that they come together more notably in the initial changes, but I also have to decide how I want to finish them. Oaking, etc.

Dave, you are correct. Kits are balanced to produce the best result -- with reputable vendors, everything in the concentrate is balanced, and the situation is as stable as the vendors can produce.

Grapes and juice? Ya get what ya get. Grapes are a natural product and vary from year to year, and within a year, from vine to vine.

@RylanJacobs, I recommend making a few kits first. Get comfortable with the process -- you've read all about it, but doing it is different. Get some practice, then look at juice. Note that make wine from kits and making wine from juice is very similar, but with juice the training wheels are off.

That said, a lot of folks jump in head first and do just fine. Take a look at this recent thread, where our members share their origin stories.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/how-did-you-start-winemaking.77765/

 

[RylanJacobs]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's replies!

I'm thinking that I may go with a FWK Tavola Riesling. The reviews seem pretty good, and it looks like a nice balance between a structured kit and fresh juice.

With how much fun I have just reading about winemaking, I can only hope that I will be having this much fun making it.

Thanks again to all! More questions to come I'm sure.

 

[cmason1957]

Questions are good and we actively suggest them. It is easier for all involved to answer the question, than try to fix the problem that came about due to someone on Youtube saying you gotta do (fill in the blank with something that really only applies in one obscure situation) to make great wine. There are no hard and fast rules, well maybe one or two. and ask 10 winemakers get 11 opinions.

And remember, have fun, whats the worst that can happen -- you make something that tastes horrible. It's hard to make something that will cause major harm.

 

[vinny]

@RylanJacobs, I recommend making a few kits first. Get comfortable with the process

I'm thinking that I may go with a FWK Tavola Riesling.

Wine making is a strange hobby. There are heavy vessels to lug around. Awkward things to clean. BRIGHT smells, and then there is the waiting, but I really enjoy it. I have an urge to try to make something better, to better my understanding, to do it differently to see what the results are.To challenge myself, and I don't mind any of the work involved because the intrigue and results are so satisfying.

I think you have been given good advice, and that your choice offers the best chance for success while leaving yourself a challenge to step into when you feel ready. That might be batch number 2, or 20. In the very least the initial effort should match the outcome and offer encouragement to keep at it, rather than disappointment.

Patience is going to be your best tool for success. Expect it to take 5 months to bottle your first kit. It will taste better at 7 months and likely better at 10, but you will enjoy it at 5. Taste the juice in the kit, taste it when you rack it to secondary, when you rack off the lees, and again when you bottle. You will see how drastically it changes in the first few months and get a gauge of where it starts to come together for you. Most of my kits are the 6-8 week kits. I find 3 months after this is where they come together for my liking and they continue to improve from there.

I have made so many different wines because I am working on making a variety and aiming to have them last out to a couple years to see how they age. The only way I can be that patient is to make more than I can drink. Instead of bottling 30 and drinking 30. I will make many batches. I often bottle half and leave half to continue aging in a 3 gallon carboy. I have a few to bottle over the next few days and the wine rack is half empty, but I still have 7+ varieties in the rack plus the ones I am about to add.

I am hoping some of the ones that are really good now are going to be great later. And the ones I really enjoy are like pulling out the $50 bottle, while others are the good every day drinkers. When you make something that you want to hide and save for special occasions, it is just fun!

Good luck. And I forgot to say, welcome to WMT!

 

[winemaker81]

Dave (@vinny) raised an important point -- taste! Smell and taste your wine at every step of the way. This self-education regarding how wine changes is very important for your own understanding.

Note that wine doesn't taste like wine for a while -- immediately post-fermentation it's full of CO2 with gives it a sharp tang, and after that it's going through a lot of changes. However, with enough experience you will be able to taste that wine and make a pass/fail judgment on how it will mature.

I have 2 barrels that must be topped monthly. My son & I joke that we'd have more wine to bottle if it wasn't for our strict quality control measures (AKA tasting) at each topup ....

Another thing is to keep good notes. I keep my notes online on my web site (see my sig) so you can see the level of detail I keep.

Folks will tell you to not open your wine for X months or a year or whatever after bottling. I disagree. Open a bottle every month or 3, and each time record your impressions and put that note away. A year after bottling, read the notes, first to last, to see how the wine progressed.

 

[vinny]

Folks will tell you to not open your wine for X months or a year or whatever after bottling. I disagree. Open a bottle every month or 3,

This is my strategy, and I can't see it changing unless I make so much that I can't get to a wine for 2 years., and that's one hell of a backlog. I will note that I have opened one a week later and was shocked that a very balanced and enjoyable wine turned into a spiky mess (official wine terminology!). Bottle shock is an interesting phenomenon. It is the only reason I wait to open a bottle, and the main reason I taste at bottling because I know I will have to wait for a spell for another sip.

 

[cmason1957]

Along the lines of tasting it after bottling. The first few batches I made were low alcohol level cheap kits. The LHBS (local home brew shop) suggested we taste at one month, a month later, etc. At the first tasting it was at least drinkable, really fairly good. At the second and third not so much, the LHBS let me know that was somewhat normal, since that time I have realized that for a period of time after bottling wine goes through a dumb phase, where it forgets what it wants to be. But it does pass through that phase. My guess is this is the reason many wineries won't release a wine to the sales channel for 6 months to a year after bottling.

 

[RylanJacobs]

Wine making is a strange hobby. There are heavy vessels to lug around. Awkward things to clean. BRIGHT smells, and then there is the waiting, but I really enjoy it. I have an urge to try to make something better, to better my understanding, to do it differently to see what the results are.To challenge myself, and I don't mind any of the work involved because the intrigue and results are so satisfying.

I think you have been given good advice, and that your choice offers the best chance for success while leaving yourself a challenge to step into when you feel ready. That might be batch number 2, or 20. In the very least the initial effort should match the outcome and offer encouragement to keep at it, rather than disappointment.

Patience is going to be your best tool for success. Expect it to take 5 months to bottle your first kit. It will taste better at 7 months and likely better at 10, but you will enjoy it at 5. Taste the juice in the kit, taste it when you rack it to secondary, when you rack off the lees, and again when you bottle. You will see how drastically it changes in the first few months and get a gauge of where it starts to come together for you. Most of my kits are the 6-8 week kits. I find 3 months after this is where they come together for my liking and they continue to improve from there.

I have made so many different wines because I am working on making a variety and aiming to have them last out to a couple years to see how they age. The only way I can be that patient is to make more than I can drink. Instead of bottling 30 and drinking 30. I will make many batches. I often bottle half and leave half to continue aging in a 3 gallon carboy. I have a few to bottle over the next few days and the wine rack is half empty, but I still have 7+ varieties in the rack plus the ones I am about to add.

I am hoping some of the ones that are really good now are going to be great later. And the ones I really enjoy are like pulling out the $50 bottle, while others are the good every day drinkers. When you make something that you want to hide and save for special occasions, it is just fun!

Good luck. And I forgot to say, welcome to WMT!

Thanks for the reply!

I think we're definitely on the same page. I'm excited to make around 30 bottles and drink them over the next few years. I am totally enamored with the process of wine and am really excited.

The kit is on its way!

 

[RylanJacobs]

Along the lines of tasting it after bottling. The first few batches I made were low alcohol level cheap kits. The LHBS (local home brew shop) suggested we taste at one month, a month later, etc. At the first tasting it was at least drinkable, really fairly good. At the second and third not so much, the LHBS let me know that was somewhat normal, since that time I have realized that for a period of time after bottling wine goes through a dumb phase, where it forgets what it wants to be. But it does pass through that phase. My guess is this is the reason many wineries won't release a wine to the sales channel for 6 months to a year after bottling.

This sounds like "bottle-shock?"

I was visiting a winery last year and the winemaker said he waits a minimum of 3 months after bottling before selling. I'm assuming I should wait the same before drinking?

 

[RylanJacobs]

This is my strategy, and I can't see it changing unless I make so much that I can't get to a wine for 2 years., and that's one hell of a backlog. I will note that I have opened one a week later and was shocked that a very balanced and enjoyable wine turned into a spiky mess (official wine terminology!). Bottle shock is an interesting phenomenon. It is the only reason I wait to open a bottle, and the main reason I taste at bottling because I know I will have to wait for a spell for another sip.

What is the timeline you recommend? A commercial winemaker once told me 3 months, but he is also trying to make a living with his product. So I imagine he is less willing to take a risk

 

[RylanJacobs]

Dave (@vinny) raised an important point -- taste! Smell and taste your wine at every step of the way. This self-education regarding how wine changes is very important for your own understanding.

Note that wine doesn't taste like wine for a while -- immediately post-fermentation it's full of CO2 with gives it a sharp tang, and after that it's going through a lot of changes. However, with enough experience you will be able to taste that wine and make a pass/fail judgment on how it will mature.

I have 2 barrels that must be topped monthly. My son & I joke that we'd have more wine to bottle if it wasn't for our strict quality control measures (AKA tasting) at each topup ....

Another thing is to keep good notes. I keep my notes online on my web site (see my sig) so you can see the level of detail I keep.

Folks will tell you to not open your wine for X months or a year or whatever after bottling. I disagree. Open a bottle every month or 3, and each time record your impressions and put that note away. A year after bottling, read the notes, first to last, to see how the wine progressed.

Thank you so much for your replies. I have perused your website and find it fascinating. So much information for someone like me. I will definitely be referring back to it in the future.

 

[winemaker81]

I think we're definitely on the same page. I'm excited to make around 30 bottles and drink them over the next few years.

You're being too optimistic.

It's highly unlikely your first batch will last for years. Not because it goes bad; rather because you'll drink it faster than you expect. This is perfectly normal behavior, especially for first batches. Consider if you open 1 bottle of wine each week, that carboy is gone in 7 months.

I suggest you set aside 4 bottles in a "do not drink" area, and don't touch them for a year. Depending on your own consumption rate, we'll see how long before those bottles are orphans, e.g., no others remain.

There is only one solution that allows for wine to age -- make more than you drink. That may sound funny, but it's literally true. As you peruse this forum, you'll read about how carboys breed like bunnies, as people start making more and more wine. Be prepared for this, and don't expect help from the forum on the subject, as we are all enablers.

I was visiting a winery last year and the winemaker said he waits a minimum of 3 months after bottling before selling. I'm assuming I should wait the same before drinking?

I wait at least 1 month, as most wine are past bottle shock at that point. Waiting 3 months is being cautious, which makes sense for a commercial winery. If you open a wine at 1 month and experience bottle shock, you won't freak, while a paying customer will.

 

[vinny]

What is the timeline you recommend? A commercial winemaker once told me 3 months, but he is also trying to make a living with his product. So I imagine he is less willing to take a risk

I think most say about a month. Some here will just put them away for three months before even thinking about it, again. I have only noticed it in the first 3 weeks. There may still be lingering effects, but not the in your face differences that actually made it unpleasant.

I agree with Bryan, a lot of people trunk age. Meaning they get wine made at the local wine shop. Bottle on the manufacturers date and age it in the trunk on the way home, drinking it as soon as they walk in the door. There is an excitement to see what you have made. I rarely buy wine. I like mine better. I sip and look for the most subtle flavors. I am WAY more critical of my wine and I am learning more about wine than I ever thought I would know.

Something also happened after the first batch and I was compelled to make one after another. I have had 5 in primary at once. You may be posting here in 18 months with a few bottles of the original batch left and no concerns because there are 20 more in the works. Maybe not, but if it's good, it's gonna get drank!