Secondary fermention

[Mapleleaf]

Until recently, I always made wine from fresh juice and just did one fermentation step for about 3 to 4 weeks until the SG is below .995. With kits it seems that there is a primary fermentation followed by a secondary fermentation. Why not let the must in the pail until the desired final SG is reached?

 

[MrsJones]

Most don't due to the risk of oxidation; plastic is too permeable.

 

[Ernest T Bass]

I'll give this one a shot. Fermenting in a open bucket covered with a cloth, this will give the must the oxygen it needs, then when the SpGr gets down to below 1.010 transfer to a carboy, that way you are still be producing CO2 that will purge any oxygen out that got in during transfer. Then when you take a SpGr reading, check pH and make adjustments you are exposing the wine to far less oxygen, due to the surface area of the wine in the carboy neck, that could ruin your wine
Semper Fi .

 

[Thig]

I think the wine is still so full of CO2 at this point that there is no harm in fermenting dry in the primary bucket

 

[heatherd]

I will sometimes ferment to dry in the primary, with an airlock in place. Haven't found there to be any harm.


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[beano]

I'll give this one a shot. Fermenting in a open bucket covered with a cloth, this will give the must the oxygen it needs, then when the SpGr gets down to below 1.010 transfer to a carboy, that way you are still be producing CO2 that will purge any oxygen out that got in during transfer. Then when you take a SpGr reading, check pH and make adjustments you are exposing the wine to far less oxygen, due to the surface area of the wine in the carboy neck, that could ruin your wine
Semper Fi .

I have to go with Ernest T Bass on this, I always roll mine over @ 1.005-1.010 into the carboy and airlock it and let it finish from there if I want it dry or sorbate it if it's where I want it.

 

[cpfan]

Until recently, I always made wine from fresh juice and just did one fermentation step for about 3 to 4 weeks until the SG is below .995. With kits it seems that there is a primary fermentation followed by a secondary fermentation. Why not let the must in the pail until the desired final SG is reached?

And kit makers will say... "You leave it in the primary for FOUR WEEKS?? "

I guess it's just different ways of doing things. Kit manufacturers label their product as ready-to-bottle of 4 and 6 weeks. Four weeks in primary doesn't work in that scenario.

Why do you wait 3-4 weeks? Do you check the sg along the way to see if the fermentation is complete?

Steve

 

[Mapleleaf]

Yes I start checking in the second week every 2 or 3 days. Usually by the 3rd week the sg is below .995 for red. White usually takes a good 4 weeks. I use a glass carboy with an airlock for fresh juice. I will try to do the same with a wine kit instead of using a plastic pail and see what happens.

 

[richmke]

Why not let the must in the pail until the desired final SG is reached?

Reduce the risk of the yeast (lees) breaking down and giving a sulfur taste.

Rack off at SG 1.01, and that leaves most of the yeast behind. Whatever yeast is in suspension can finish the ferment.

 

[cpfan]

Yes I start checking in the second week every 2 or 3 days. Usually by the 3rd week the sg is below .995 for red. White usually takes a good 4 weeks. I use a glass carboy with an airlock for fresh juice. I will try to do the same with a wine kit instead of using a plastic pail and see what happens.

If you put the full 23 litres in a 23 litre carboy for primary fermentation you will probably have foam blowing out the air lock.

Steve

 

[Mapleleaf]

True. It is ok for fresh juice since they come in 21l. But if It is ok to do one fermentation only for kits, I would buy a larger carboy and leave it in for 2 weeks or until the sg is ok.

 

[Elmer]

And kit makers will say... "You leave it in the primary for FOUR WEEKS?? "

I guess it's just different ways of doing things. Kit manufacturers label their product as ready-to-bottle of 4 and 6 weeks. Four weeks in primary doesn't work in that scenario.

Why do you wait 3-4 weeks? Do you check the sg along the way to see if the fermentation is complete?

Steve

Early on I followed the directions on kits, however lately (last year or more) I have deviated from specifically following them.
I have found that racking to a carboy anywhere around 1.010 or lower, extends the fermentation time quite considerably in comparison to just snapping the lid down. Usually when I am down to 1.010 I snap the lid down and within a few days (no more than 5) I am down to .0996.
Then I rack to a carboy, degass, clarify, sorbate, k-meta, etc…etc….
My thought has been this-WE and many of the other kit manufactures will tell you that having airspace in the carboy during the clarifying stage is acceptable. While I do not necessarily buy that train of thought, I will believe it when the must is still throwing gas.
Then again when I am making a kit, I have 6 gallons of must in a 6.5 (maybe 7) gallon bucket, there is not that much room. However I would leave just 1 or 3 gallon of must to ferment out in a 6.5 bucket. I would rack that.
I have completely fermented in the for my last 7 kits and they all taste fine (actually I have not tasted my last 2 kits, since they are super young, but we can presume there will be no issue).

 

[cpfan]

Early on I followed the directions on kits, however lately (last year or more) I have deviated from specifically following them.
I have found that racking to a carboy anywhere around 1.010 or lower, extends the fermentation time quite considerably in comparison to just snapping the lid down. Usually when I am down to 1.010 I snap the lid down and within a few days (no more than 5) I am down to .0996.
Then I rack to a carboy, degass, clarify, sorbate, k-meta, etc…etc….
My thought has been this-WE and many of the other kit manufactures will tell you that having airspace in the carboy during the clarifying stage is acceptable. While I do not necessarily buy that train of thought, I will believe it when the must is still throwing gas.
Then again when I am making a kit, I have 6 gallons of must in a 6.5 (maybe 7) gallon bucket, there is not that much room. However I would leave just 1 or 3 gallon of must to ferment out in a 6.5 bucket. I would rack that.
I have completely fermented in the for my last 7 kits and they all taste fine (actually I have not tasted my last 2 kits, since they are super young, but we can presume there will be no issue).

Elmer:

I suspect that everyone has different experiences and procedures. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I have been fortunate to be able to keep my wines at a reasonable temperature. So, I wait a week, and if the sg is below 1.005 then I rack it to a carboy. Then I wait a while (even if the sg was .992), say 14 days, and rack it again for the degassing/stabilizing/clearing steps. Then I wait until I want to bottle it. When I worked for a living (I'm retired now), I liked the 7 & 14 day waits because that meant I was doing my wine work on the weekend.

Steve

 

[joeswine]

It's all in the ???????

TIME AND TEMP PLUS THE chemistry make up of the wine all plays a very large part in and when the time to rack arrives. If you follow any of my threads you'll see I bucket ferment ,doesn't matter what the content ,I bucket ferment and then let the chemistry begin .It could take 10 days to completely ferment out or longer or as little as 5 days all depends on temp,content being fermented and yeast type and activity. Yet alone volume being fermented. Patients and time the key is reading constantly your sg, know where you started and when you've finished, at least that's the way I see it.....................................................

 

[Mapleleaf]

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions. This is what I am starting to lean toward. Keep the must in the pail with loose cover for 5 days or so. And then snap it in put a bung and airlock for a week and check the sg until done. At least I will try it once and see how it goes.

Cheers

 

[cpfan]

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions. This is what I am starting to lean toward. Keep the must in the pail with loose cover for 5 days or so. And then snap it in put a bung and airlock for a week and check the sg until done. At least I will try it once and see how it goes.

Cheers

Nothing wrong with that approach unless there is something floating (eg grape skins, oak tea bag). Some RJ Spagnols instructions have a 14 day primary (ferment until done) then immediately stabilize & clear.

I'm not sure about that approach when grape skins and oak tea bags are involved. For those, you should be opening the pail and stirring daily, thus negating any benefit from the airlock. For these wines, I would definitely rack to carboy (if sg appropriate) about day 7.

BTW, I guess this is one of those situations where it would be nice to know what kit you are asking about before commenting.

Steve

 

[Mapleleaf]

It is a Vino Europa Merlot (4-week kit) which I bought from costco. Probably not the best but it was cheap.

 

[cpfan]

It is a Vino Europa Merlot (4-week kit) which I bought from costco. Probably not the best but it was cheap.

Pretty sure that I have never made one of those. Doubt that it comes with anything that floats and needs to be turned under. The oak may float (depending on what oak is included), but not something that I would worry about.

Hope you enjoy the resulting wine. I talked to somebody who made these several years ago (2005ish) and he characterised it as weak. When I asked weak flavour? weak body? He said YES.

Steve

 

[Just-a-Guy]

cpfan - sorry to interject in this thread... I'm learning from it... but, can you explain what you mean by "turned under"?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Rocky]

Mark, I think Steve was referring to pushing down anything (like a grape pack or grape skins) that float to the top of the wine during fermentation.

Mapleleaf, you can improve some of those simple kits with the addition of a concentrated background fruit. In your case with Merlot, I could see adding concentrated Cherry, Blueberry or Blackberry to give the wine some additional taste and body. If you want to try any of these, I have taken the fruit and boiled off about 1/2 of the liquid (water) before adding it to the fermenter. It is probably too late to try that for this batch but something to think about next time.