Holy Cheese on a Cracker!

[vernsgal]

Well I've read about it, heard about it but have never experienced it. I had not 1,but 2 wines come alive after bottling.
My hubby likes his wines a little sweeter than my dry ones ( I usually backsweeten his to 1.004)
These were both RJS kits I bought back in Feb. The 1st was a Nebbiolo the 2nd a Cab.Sauv.
I bottled both back in July. Due to lack of space on my racks I put them in wine boxes,on their sides, and left them. Today I picked a box up to move and :< the cork blew on one. I uncorked the rest and they were definitely alive! I poured them all into a bucket, took SG and it was down to 1.003. Looked like red champagne.Tonight the smell tells me they are fermenting. Was curious on the other one I did so I uncorked 2 bottles and they were definitely bubbling.

I checked my notes and I did add sorbate.I also bulk aged these guys for 2 months before bottling. I can see if maybe, I forgot sorbate and just jotted it down out of habit , but 2 separate ones? I've been doing kits for too many years to muck both up.

Anyone have ideas of what went wrong? I'm worried because I just bottled 2 other kinds last week which were purchased at same time. Should I leave them aside and watch? Could it be the sorbate wasn't good?In the meantime, do I let these re-ferment out, add more sorbate and sugar and just tell hubby "cheers, go easy on these"?.lol

 

[Julie]

I would say it is the sorbate, how old is it? If you have it sitting on a shelf I won't use it after six months and one year if in the frig.

 

[cmason1957]

Since these are kits, I would guess that the supplied sorbate was a bit old. You don't happen to still have the date code and when you added the sorbate? That might tell you something or lead to somewhere.

 

[vernsgal]

both kits were dated 20142101. I added the sorbate at the end of July.So if the sorbate was fresh when added to kits it would have only been 6 months.Should I be concerned about the other 2 kits that have the same date code?

 

[cmason1957]

Sounds like the sorbate should have been good. At least by time. My guess and it is just a guess, is you forgot to add the sorbate. But I am sort of with you on, maybe for one of them, but not both.

When you add sorbate, do you normally put it in water or add it directly to your wine? I know the directions say add to water then to wine.

Odds are you may never know exactly what happened.

 

[Julie]

I think it was the sorbate, you have no idea how old the sorbate was before it was placed in the kit. yes I would be concern with the other two kits, buy new sorbate.

 

[vernsgal]

Thanks guys. I know I couldn't have missed on both (my brain hasn't sent that much on vacation yet).
If I'm following kit time I add sorbate directly to wine because I use drill to degas.If I'm bulk aging I add the sorbate to a cup of the wine and mix it til dissolved before adding.
I think I'll set these others aside for a few weeks and make sure they're ok before putting in the cellar.

 

[grapeman]

Some folks add the sorbate to wine with no real problems. Others insist it needs to be added to water first to have a chemical reaction and form sorbic acid. Since you mix it with wine and had problems, try adding it to a couple ounces of water. Add sorbate to the water, stir and let it stand for a minute or two. It will go from cloudy to a slightly golden tint and clear. Add it to the wine and stir well. It will sometimes make a white wine slightly cloudy until mixed well at which point it clears right up.

 

[Arne]

We ought to start a club for people that have had this happen. Only thing is most everybody on here would be in the club. The rest are just waiting for their chance to become members. It happens and I believe it is usually from sorbate going bad, either time or exposure to the wrong storage conditions. Arne.

 

[vernsgal]

I remember reading about a week ago of the same thing happening to you Arne. It's weird how you can do the same thing dozens of times and then all of a sudden...Hopefully this was our turn and it won't occur again!

 

[Arne]

The other thing that can cause it to happenis too much tasting while working with the wines. Strange things go on then. lol, Arne.

 

[marly]

this happened to me last week 2 [6gl carboys of blueberry wine]which i had let age for 1 year, sorbated ,sweetened and bottled,started blowing corks,i dumped all back in carboys,they are still bubbling,what do i do now??

 

[Julie]

this happened to me last week 2 [6gl carboys of blueberry wine]which i had let age for 1 year, sorbated ,sweetened and bottled,started blowing corks,i dumped all back in carboys,they are still bubbling,what do i do now??

Let it ferment it dry, then add k-meta and new sorbate and then backsweeten again. Then leave it sit I. The carboy a couple of weeks before bottling

 

[comeauch]

It's just my two cents, but as a chemist I doubt potassium sorbate could significantly lose its "freshness". I would suppose the main degradation reaction would be its oxidation, so keeping the container closed might be a good idea (and lower temperature make everything go slower). But even then, my bet would be that under normal conditions (room temp., some humidity, closed container, occasional opening), it's probably not oxidizing fast enough to have an effect for a few years... or millenia. Some papers indicate a shelf life of 2 years, but I guess it's about as high as you can declare. I haven't found any paper about it. Its efficiency does depend on pH though... but then again, we usually stay in a "safe" concentration range. Coming from a kit, that's probably not the problem.

Maybe it went through malolactic fermentation? Sorbate wouldn't have prevented MLF and it does produce CO2... Also, going from 1.004 to 1.003 isn't really convincing me of a primary fermentation. Did you add some metabisulfite before bottling or with the sorbate?

 

[BernardSmith]

Kim, Two thoughts: I wonder if the problem might not be the sorbate itself. What happens if you add sorbate to a very active colony of yeast? Would the sorbate be capable of blocking fermentation? My question: are you certain that the colony of yeast was very small and that the yeast that was in the colony was hardly viable? The other thought is that K-sorbate does not typically work by itself but needs the action of K-meta to help weaken the viability of the yeast. You make no mention about adding K-meta with the sorbate. You did add K-meta with the sorbate?

 

[vernsgal]

It's just my two cents, but as a chemist I doubt potassium sorbate could significantly lose its "freshness". I would suppose the main degradation reaction would be its oxidation, so keeping the container closed might be a good idea (and lower temperature make everything go slower). But even then, my bet would be that under normal conditions (room temp., some humidity, closed container, occasional opening), it's probably not oxidizing fast enough to have an effect for a few years... or millenia. Some papers indicate a shelf life of 2 years, but I guess it's about as high as you can declare. I haven't found any paper about it. Its efficiency does depend on pH though... but then again, we usually stay in a "safe" concentration range. Coming from a kit, that's probably not the problem.

Maybe it went through malolactic fermentation? Sorbate wouldn't have prevented MLF and it does produce CO2... Also, going from 1.004 to 1.003 isn't really convincing me of a primary fermentation. Did you add some metabisulfite before bottling or with the sorbate?

I added k meta when I racked at 2 weeks.i then bulk aged for 6 weeks then added sorbate and sweetened.

Kim, Two thoughts: I wonder if the problem might not be the sorbate itself. What happens if you add sorbate to a very active colony of yeast? Would the sorbate be capable of blocking fermentation? My question: are you certain that the colony of yeast was very small and that the yeast that was in the colony was hardly viable? The other thought is that K-sorbate does not typically work by itself but needs the action of K-meta to help weaken the viability of the yeast. You make no mention about adding K-meta with the sorbate. You did add K-meta with the sorbate?

As mentioned above , I did add the k-meta. In most of the kits I've done, you add k-meta, mix well then add sorbate then sugar all in the same day.

I racked and added k-meta, aged then added sorbate ,then sugar.
The only thing I did different from kit instructions is that I didn't do all the stirring it says to do at 2 weeks because I thought the bulk aging would take care of that.Could that be the issue?

 

[cmason1957]

I think @BernardSmith might have hit the nail on the head. You should always add K-Meta, when you add the Potassium Sorbate. The K-Meta that was added prior to bulk aging had probably already mostly been bound up.

 

[marly]

Let it ferment it dry, then add k-meta and new sorbate and then backsweeten again. Then leave it sit I. The carboy a couple of weeks before bottling

thanks julie will try this

 

[vernsgal]

So the SG on both have both gone below 1.000 so definite re-ferment. Today I racked them both into carboy and airlock.Leaving for 2 weeks so when I get back I'll check S02. If it's high do I have to wait for it to lower so I can add more k-meta with sorbate? I had added more k-meta before bottling so I don't want too much

 

[Arne]

Let it clear, then add your k=meta and sorbate. I have had it fail to stabalize and I kinda think it mite of been because I stabalized before the wine was clear. Just one of those gut feelings, but for me it has never failed when I clear first. Arne.