Finishing/Cellaring Tannins - my personal observation

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Geronimo

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Just a word to the wise about using finishing and/or cellaring tannins... be careful because they tend to make all your wines taste the same. What I mean is, they all have the same finish. I've tried Tannin Riche, Tannin Rich Extra, Tan'Cor Grand Cru and the ubiquitous "wine tannin" chestnut extract. It's very tough to dial these things in on a kit-by-kit basis... and adding 4.5 grams of Tan'Cor Grand Cru every time isn't the answer either.
 
Have to agree with that one Jim. I try to start with a base kit (no tweaks) just to get a feel of how the manufacturer intended the kit to taste. Then, I adjust it if I don't agree with their opinion. But I adjust slowly. Still fun to mess with it.
 
You really need to add a small amount and different grapes are going to need a different amount.
 
Not to take over this thread but I really didn't want to start another tannin thread. I really think a very small amount will work great in your wine. I am wondering if you are getting the same taste in your wines because of the amount. Anyway what I wanted to post is this.

I added 1/4 tsp of FT Blanc soft to a Catawba, the Catawba flavor comes they very nicely and it seems to be softer and a much better mouthfeel. It is six months old and I can start drinking this stuff now and keep going until it is done.
 
Julie, when did you add the FT blanc soft? I have a Chilean sauv blanc that's just about a month old that I'd be curious to try this on.


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A month ago. I have a sauv blanc that I added some to a gallon batch two weeks ago, I will take a little taste of that this weekend to see if it helped it any.
 
post fermentation tannins don't integrate well with the base wine, they kind of dominate and mask the wine and take a long time to integrate with the wine, some times never acheiving balance.

adding tannin before pitching the yeast and letting the tannin go through fermentation with the grapes or juice will produce much better results , lifting the fruit instead of masking it .
 
Just a word to the wise about using finishing and/or cellaring tannins... be careful because they tend to make all your wines taste the same. What I mean is, they all have the same finish. I've tried Tannin Riche, Tannin Rich Extra, Tan'Cor Grand Cru and the ubiquitous "wine tannin" chestnut extract. It's very tough to dial these things in on a kit-by-kit basis... and adding 4.5 grams of Tan'Cor Grand Cru every time isn't the answer either.

That's a bit disappointing to hear, especially since I arrived home today to find my 10-pack box of Tan'Cor Grand Cru sitting on my door step. I guess as long as the lengthy finish is there that might be worth it.

I've heard a lot of good reviews about adding finishing tannins to wines, so I thought I'd give it a go. Based on the advice here, I'll probably test out small dosages on batches I've split up to see how it fares.

Thanks for posting the review!
 
the primary purpose of post fermentation tannins is to allow commercial wineries to get the most out of their red wine barreling programs , replacing the leached out tannins in older barrels. so they work best when used this way , the micro ox from barreling helps them integrate.

tancor gran cru can also be used preferment , so you could do two batches , one added before and one after and compare as they age
 
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the primary purpose of post fermentation tannins is to allow commercial wineries to get the most out of their barreling programs , replacing the leached out tannins in older barrels. so they work best when used this way , the micro ox from barreling helps them integrate.

tancor gran cru can also be used preferment , so you could do two batches , one added before and one after and compare as they age

mansvine, thanks for the tip! I will definitely try that.
 
Tan'Cor Grand Cru is a finishing/cellaring tannin. It works very well for that purpose. Like I said, you need to be sure you want to add some because all your kits will start to have this strong similarity. I didn't mean to play it like it's bad, but it's not as simple as adding a pre-measured amount to every kit.
 
I guess my experience/opinion is slightly different.

All my kit wines (early ones) all tasted exactly the same to me until I started to age them in a small (Vadai) barrel. Then and only then did I start to notice the different bouquets and flavors from different kits. At about a year going full into barrel aging I started to experiment with finishing tannins. I added them to bottled wines that had spent their entire life in glass only at first. I liked the extend finish immediately. So much that I would weigh out just the right amount to add to each bottle and uncork it, add the tannin and insert a fresh cork and invert the bottle back and forth about 20 times to mix well. Again I loved the extend finish but the wines still all tasted pretty much the same until…….

I started adding tannins right after the wines came out of 3 months in the barrel and they were going into a 3-5 month carboy aging period.

Once I started opening these wines (18mo later) was the first time my kit wines started to really shine and all tasted very different from each other and some even tasted like a commercial wine.

So don't blame the tannin, I say blame the carboy if that is all your aging your wines in.
 
I guess my experience/opinion is slightly different.

All my kit wines (early ones) all tasted exactly the same to me until I started to age them in a small (Vadai) barrel. Then and only then did I start to notice the different bouquets and flavors from different kits. At about a year going full into barrel aging I started to experiment with finishing tannins. I added them to bottled wines that had spent their entire life in glass only at first. I liked the extend finish immediately. So much that I would weigh out just the right amount to add to each bottle and uncork it, add the tannin and insert a fresh cork and invert the bottle back and forth about 20 times to mix well. Again I loved the extend finish but the wines still all tasted pretty much the same until…….

I started adding tannins right after the wines came out of 3 months in the barrel and they were going into a 3-5 month carboy aging period.

Once I started opening these wines (18mo later) was the first time my kit wines started to really shine and all tasted very different from each other and some even tasted like a commercial wine.

So don't blame the tannin, I say blame the carboy if that is all your aging your wines in.

I recall some posts where you have referenced your success with Vadai barrels. You are starting to convince me that this might be worth the investment...
 
Mansvine, you say that the finishing wines are really used by commercial wineries after their barrels are mostly used up. What about for a home winemaker who isn't using barrels, just glass carboys? I've got a carmenere juice bucket going now and while I've added some oak cubes I'm wondering if some finishing tannin might also be a good idea. Any thoughts on that situation?


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Agree to disagree

THERE WAS A GOOD POST ON WINE TANNINS ON THIS FORUM ,AND IT TALKED ABOUT TANNINS AND THEIR ROLE IN THE PRIMARY /SECONDARY AND WHAT THERE TRAITS WERE,FOR ME I FERMENT AND FINISH IN GLASS ONLY, THAT'S WHAT I HAVE,ADDING TANNINS IN THE SECONDARY IS WERE THE MOST GOOD COMES OUT OF THEM (IMOP). THAT SAID IF WINES TEND TO START TO TASTE All ALIKE THEN IT'S THE RAW PRODUCT THAT IS BEING USED OR (KIT) NOT HAVING THE NECESSARY TASTE LEVELS NEED TO BE WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO END UP BEING OR YOUR PROCESS ,MOST REDS HAVE THE SAME BASIC CHARASTICS,THE TYPE OF PRODUCT USED IS THE VARIANCE.IF I HAD MORE TIME I WOULD INVEST IN A SMALL CASK JUST TO SEE AND SMELL THE DIFFERENCE ,BUT REMEMBER THERE SHELF LIFE IS ABOUT FIVE YEARS.JUST MY THOUGHTS.....................:h
 
finishing tannins are a fine product to add to a wine that has a hole in its profile .

but it is preferred to make your tannin adjustments in the primary fermenter , I posted in the additive section in the pinned tannin thread why.

can finnishing tannins help? yes , but the results will not be as integrated as they would if they were added at or before the start of primary ferment .

using finishing tannins in neutral barrels works better because the micro ox helps them integrate , but in a carboy you have no micro ox so I would doubly recommend you do your tannin additions in the primary if youre a carboy or tank winemaker and want a smoother more integrated tannin profile.

if you like hit you over the head oaky tannin monsters , then loading up with finnishing tannins instead might be what you do.
me , I try to shoot for subtle notes that elevate rather than mask fruit.
 
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Will adding finishing tannins to primary sacrifice them (by and large)?

I did try adding them to one batch near the end of primary and they seemed subdued, but without a control I couldn't be sure about anything.
 
Making tannin adjustments prior to fermentation are more of a sacrificial nature, they will precipitate out in the lees. Adding tannins in this stage will preserve the natural tannins.
 
thats only partially true , about 5-15 % of tannins added prior to fermentation precipitate out . the rest form long chain bonds with the wines natural tannins and color elements and become a structural part of the wine. they don't fall out with the lees but become an integral part of the wine. So only a small amount is sacrificial .
in addition to bonding with the grape skin tannins and preserving colour , fermentation stage tannins also bond with any seed and stem tanins that may be in the must. this is important to know as if you have any green seeds or stem pieces in the must , the harsh short chain green tannins that will make your wine sharp and bitter , can be mitigated by binding with your fermentation stage addition.

discussed at length in this tread.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/tannins-know-when-why-add-them-42039/

the yeast fermentation stage tannins are not truely sacraficial but they do add a lot of structure to the wine. there is some bonding with proteins from the added tannins that don't make it into the final wine, I guess this could be called sacraficial but this is actualy the minority of the impact. more of a side action than principle benefit. and not all products have a strong action or sacraficial effect.

yeast fermentation stage tannin additions bind with the two types of grape tannins naturally present , the skin and seed tannins and also the pigments of the grapes.

natural tannins from skins and seeds tend to have short molecular chains , they are unstable and want to form longer chains to become stable . this can happen naturaly , some natural binding happens durring ferment and some can happen as the wine ages , thats why ten year old reds are smoother than 1 year old reds.

but adding tannin in the yeast fermentation allows all the short chain tannins in the ferment to find a partner early and form long chains , long chains equals smooth and stable.

with the skin tannins the longer chains that are formed are similar to polimerisation , this improves tannin stability so they don't drop out later as the wine ages , ever had a filtered bottle of red wine later form a uniform coating inside the bottle not just on the bottom. this is tannin instability . very common with super ripe central valley grapes. syrah , zinfandel and cab sauv are particularly vulnerable at high levels of ripeness and matching high PH.

these longer chain tannin formations also improve mouth feel and reduce sharpness especialy if the fruit is a little green because of being under ripe or young vine or hybrid . vegital flavours are also surpressed, this is important if you get any green stem or leaf peices in the must, most basic crussher stemmers leave a little stem jacks in the must. nice brown jacks is ok in moderation but green ones can increase harshness , its almost impossible to pick all these out but tannin or oak dust can mitigate the impact.

the formation of these longer chain bonds are also very important late in yeast ferment as the alcohol level rises and seed tannins start to extract . seed tannins , especially if the seeds are at all green can make a wine very harsh . a tannin addition to reduce the unbound short chain natural tannins followed by delestage seed removal is a key strategy in reduceing rough character .

a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins before 1/4 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.

its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .

yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.

the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.

I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions .

Central Valley , hot region , high crop loads , high brix high PH , syrah , cab , zin , sangiovese , would be no brainers.
as would any red hybrid or very cold finger lakes type region.

after that , experience and taste will guide you , if you know you like a wine with round, integrated full tannins add them durring fermentation
 
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