Anyone Growing Marquette Grapes?

[vinividivici]

Rich,

Last year you mentioned pruning back to the last three buds for my Marquette (2nd year).

Just to be sure, is that three buds starting at the ground level of the trunk, i.e, the very bottom three buds?

Also, I think you mentioned that you are pruning now on another thread. So I should/could prune back per your rec above?



Bob

 

[grapeman]

Just to be sure Bob, you planted these last year so these are now going into their second year of growth when it begins? If so then yes, prune back to the lower 3 buds. It won't hurt to leave an extra one but when they begin growing you really only need one or two to form the trunk this coming year. If they are already two years in the ground, then you don't need to prune back that far unless they didn't grow at all lasdt year. Catch me up to speed here so I don't need to go back too far rereading the posts and I will let you know.

 

[vinividivici]

Rich,

That's what's somewhat confusing. I planted 1X vines so aren't sure if this is the second year or year 2.5. LOL

Last August, after you saw my photos on this thread, you said:

"Originally Posted by grapeman View Post
Those vines are right on track for first crop at three years. Next spring you can cut them back to three buds and develop the trunk. With a good year you can also form the cordons on them. Then in year three you can take some crop. Youc can leave a few clusters next year to see how they taste. In the third spring, prune all the secondary shoots down to the cane (pre growth). Then let the shoots develop from the cordons. That will give two or three clusters per shoot for a moderate crop.

With all that said, I have Marquette in my systems trial on four training systems. The yields are approximately 3-4 tons on top wire cordon and VSP, 5 tons on the Scott Henry and approximately 8-10 tons on the Modified GDC I have developed. These are three year old Marquette vines. DO NOT EXPECT THAT KIND OF CROP, but this shows what they are capable of. More information to follow some day."

The vines grew out of the tops of the blue growth tubes and I've got canes trained on the lower wire in both directions. Seems tempting to not prune, but I understand what you're saying about developing the trunk. I also found a couple of small clusters of ripe grapes that were hidden inside the bottom of the tubes!

 

[grapeman]

Thanks for the reminder. I was tired and didn't feel like retracing the thread, so that helps. If you planted 1-x last year they grew one year since transplanting-period. You could plant 10 year old vines and they are in the first year the first year of growth. Being 1-x gave them a headstart with a healthy root system, so by cutting back like I said, they will grow fast and strong this year. If you try to fruit or grow from what you have now, you will always have a small base to the vine. Future growth could actually be larger than the lower growth. Waiting until the third year to fruit is still very quick and 5 years from now you will be glad you followed this route. If you were growing Vinifera you would be at least a year behind in cropping and vine establishment.

 

[vinividivici]

Thanks, Rich. Could/should I start pruning this week?

 

[grapeman]

It is late enough now, you could begin anytime you would like and the weather allows. It is 0 here today and then by Wed mid 50s expected. On the yoyo again, it must be spring!

 

[vinividivici]

It is late enough now, you could begin anytime you would like and the weather allows. It is 0 here today and then by Wed mid 50s expected. On the yoyo again, it must be spring!

Great. It was 7 here, but supposed to be in the low 60s on Wednesday.

Another question for you or anyone else: Do you add any soil amendments in the second year? I know you don't in the first year.

 

[grapeman]

It depends on the soil and it's condition. If vigor is high, don't add.

 

[Duster]

Wow, what a good thread!
I too have been bitten by the vineyard bug. I plan on ordering Marquette vines this week from http://shop.reddogvineyards.com/main.sc. Just trying to do some last min research to ensure this is the verity I want to start with. (Any suggestions?) Also Red Dog Vineyards offers propagated potted vines much cheaper that bare root vines at other vineyards. Is there a difference in the two that I need to be concerned with?

I know I'm a few years away but what seems to be the best pruning method for Marquette grapes, Cane or Spur?

Also I really want to put up a couple of rows with a VSP trellis only because that is what I think of when I think of a wine grape vineyard, However after seeing the results of the GDC I may really need to rethink that. Grapemane, your photos we no longer viewable of your modified GDC so if possible I would like some more info on this as time allows.

vinividivici your vineyard looks great. Very Professional. I hope to be about 1 year behind ya

 

[saddlebronze]

Marquette really seems to be the way to go for reds right now among the 3rd generation hybrids. Since you are in Indiana, you might consider some Nortron as well later on. The wine is harder to make from it, but it is very hardy and the wine is very good if it is handled right. Something to aspire to. IMHO

 

[vinividivici]

Hey Duster,

Great job photoshopping that fish! (j.k.)

I looked at your vine site but have questions on their "potted vines". How long is the root system, how tall is the plant, etc. It's an unknown that I don't like. Their prices for the potted vines lead me to believe that they are small plants with small root systems. I could be wrong. You should check with them before ordering.

All of the vines I order are bare root, 1x, meaning larger and more vigorous than the standard. I get them from DoubleA vineyards. As you'll note from reading this long thread, developing the root system is the priority in the first year. The roots averaged about 18-20" long and very full. I trimmed 1/4 of the length after soaking in water for an hour before planting.

The trellis system should coincide with the vine variety. I'm using the 4-arm Kniffin trellis for my Marquette.

I don't know if you had a chance to read the entire length of this thread, but there's a ton of expert advice from some very knowledgeable growers. It's very long, due to all the questions I've been asking and some other Marquette growers.

Hope to read your progress here and some pictures of your ground with the vines planted.


Bob

 

[Duster]

vinividivici, That steel head, along with a few others and some great Salmon came from Pere Marquette river in Michigan on a Fly with 6lb tippet. Absolute Blast , a must do for anyone who enjoys the sport.

as far as the propagated potted vines, this is what I found.

There potted vines are grown from dormant hardwood cuttings that have been collected during December, January, and February. The potted vines typically have 6 to 14 inches of top growth. They are rooted in the greenhouse and grown until May when they are hardened off to outdoor conditions. These vines are vigorously growing and ready to plant in the field when you receive them. They are propagated in biodegradable paper pots known as plant bands from Monarch Manufacturing, a plant propagation and protection company. These bands measure six inches deep and are two inches wide. They are open on the bottom and have holes punched through the sides for the roots to reach out. The vines are meant to be planted together with the biodegradable pot. We grow the cuttings in a soilless growing mix to avoid the transfer of any soil born diseases! The pots require a small hole that is a minimum of eight inches deep and about three inches wide. Transplant stress is greatly reduced since the roots are never disturbed. Just drop them into the hole, backfill with dirt, and water them in. This is a very fast and efficient way to plant vines (and a lot easier on the back!!!). The potted vines are shipped mid to late May. The potted vines can be planted throughout the growing season!!! We recommend that grow tubes be used in windy, dry locations for the first month as the vine's root system gets established in it's permanent location.

Also, if you had to do it over again, and I'm sure you will, would you use the grow tubes? There seems to be a lot of back n forth controversy on the web about them.

 

[grapeman]

I have rooted vines in the plant bands from Monarch. They work, but in essence are one year behind bareroot vines. The bareroot vines were started the previous year where the bands are from this year. They grow fine, but are behind the bareroot. I will see if I can find any pictures for you. Some of them have been lost when software was upgraded on these sites.

Here is a link to some of them growing
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/some-vineyard-pictures-13694/index3.html

 

[Duster]

that is a nice looking vineyard Grapeman. I know it's pruning season and i'm sure your busy but I cant get over the yield difference you mentioned early using the GDC trellis system. I have been doing a lot of homework on different trellis the last few days and was wondering if the increased yield is a result of more sun in the renewal and fruiting zones or is it simply due to the fact that you can fit more vines per acre? Also how difficult was using a high trellis wire with Marquette grapes that from what I read tend to have an upward growth habit much like other vinifera verities?
I would really like to do a VSP system however if the vines preform better on something else then I'm game. I was thinking about the Scott Henry as well in order to double the number of fruiting canes but I am still stuck on that upward growth habit.
I wish vinividivici was far enough along for some yield info on his Kniffin trellis. Maybe I'm reading too much into this but my concern there would be that the lower foliage would shade too much of the upper fruiting area however I do like the ability of running 4 fruiting canes from the same vine if the Marquette species is vigorous enough to do so, any thoughts?

 

[grapeman]

Duster go to my website www.hipvineyard.com and go to the research tab. I cover 4 arm kniffen quite a bit there. It also announces my acceptance for the NE SARE grant I have been awarded to continue data collection on the four training systems using four varieties of grapes, including Marquette. The first step for you is to get the grapes in the ground and growing. You can also put in your posts and string the first wire or two to tie your bamboo supports to. Then next year add whatevere wires you need for the training system chosen and train the vines to it then and later years.

Marquette is not upright growth habit and trails very well. We have Marquette at the Cornell Willsboro Farm Cold Hardy Trial on Top Wire with spur pruning and it does very well.

I will have more results on comparing TWC, VSP Mod GDC and Scott-Henry at the end of this year. These comparisons have not yet been done side by side so we really don't know yet what is best. Some work is being done in the Northern Grapes Project involving Cornell and about a dozen other states and Universities including U Minn. I suggested this be done during the planning stages of the 5 year 5.2 million dollar grant application. 2.5 million has been awarded as the USDA Budget is up for renewal. It is being done is several states to get better ideas of what works better for these cold climate hybrids.Have patience and between all of us we will have some better guidelines in a few years.

 

[vinividivici]

Duster, you know I was kidding about the Steelhead, right?

We've got some great Salmon fishing up this way, just twenty miles north of us. They come into the Salmon river from Lake Ontario. Catches of up to 30 lbs or more aren't uncommon. Also Bass fishing in Oneida Lake 13 miles south of us.

Re blue growth tubes, I will, in fact, be using them again for the Frontenac and Corot Noir being delivered next month. I set them aside just for this purpose.

Our house and mini-vineyard sit on a hill, in the open and pretty windy. The vines planted last year did very well, overflowing the tops of the tubes by July or so. We can also get frosts up to June or so. Another benefit I found was during watering. I put the hose (without nozzle) in the top of the tube and the water flowed down the inside and really soaked the base of the plant.

If you ever get up this way (NE of Syracuse, NY), let me know.

Bob

 

[Duster]

good info gents, I did dig around on your website Grapeman, very interesting and I do believe I will be visiting it more. Thank you for all you do.

Bob,
Ya I know your just messing, no worries
Actually I do get that way on occasion, I have a lot of family living in and around Deposit NY, just a few miles south of ya. My wife, kids and I try to make it up that way at least once every couple of years.
So be careful what ya offer, I may take you up on it

 

[Duster]

Grapeman, Bob,
I'm a bit confused, can I run 4 cordons from a single two trunk vine? If so what kind of effects will this have on yield and grape/wine quality? If this is not advisable then what is the advantage of the GDC or the Kniffen over the HWC?

Lastly, my daughter "future grape stomper" wanted to add this =

 

[grapeman]

That is a good question Duster. We have been brainwashed into believing all grapes behave like the vinifera grapes grown in California and Europe. The fact is a hybrid is a cross of those grapes and some native american grape species- yes I said species as there are several growing in the Americas. The most common is vitis riparia and that is used in a lot of cold climate grapes. As a result of the genetics and an effect commonly seen in hybrids of all species oe sub species, the resulting offspring is often more vigorous than either parent. Hybrid grapes are much more vigorous than the vinifera side of the family.

Your question is the basis of my studies involving training systems on quality and yield of the grapes. I can't say definitivly at this point if this is true or not,Initial results show that we can improve yield on a single vine by selecting the properly matched double fruiting zone training system to the variety of grape, vigor of the site and your location. This is why I told you to get the grapes growing and I can soon give you more information (within another couple years).

You might ask - "How is this possible?" The vines just want to grow vigorously. They will put out a certain potential amount of growth per year, depending on all input factors. For sake of example let's say the vine wants to grow 200 feet in one year along all it's shoots together. If I use a single fruiting zone such as VSP or TWC, I would want about three shoots per foot or about 4 inches apart. Now if my vine spacing is about 8 feet, I would get 3x8 or 24-25 shoots growing and each having about 2 clusters apiece (total of 50 clusters). Now divide the 200 feet of growth by the 25 shoots and you get shoot length of 8 feet each. If you are on either VSP or TWC, you will get extreme shading (VSP) or vines growing all over the place again with shading. To combat that, you are forced to hedge or skirt the vines.

Now take a double fruiting zone- with either a single trunk split 4 ways or a double trunk each split 2 ways. Now in 8 feet of space, you get 50 shoots. Divide your potential growth of 200 feet by the 50, and your average shoot length is 4 feet each. Because of that, you don't need much skirting or hedging. You also have 50 shoots times 2 clusters per shoot for a total of 100 clusters. Because you haven't chopped off any shoots with the double, the shoots have as many or more leaves per shoot as the single fruiting zone vines. Therefore they can ripen the crop which can be as much as double the single fruiting zone system.

What I have initially found is that the double fruiting zone systems yield 50 to 250 percent more than the single fruiting zone systems (in hybrids) with equal or better juice quality.

For a more complete explanation, you may be able to read an article I am writing on this for Wines and Vines in a coming publication. I will let you know if they pick it up and when. Dr. Justine Vanden Heuvel of Cornell is working with me on this. She is my current technical advisor in the 2012 NE SARE grant titled - Cold Climate Grapes- Increased Sustainability through Improved Yield and Quality

 

[ibglowin]

Wow, great explanation Rich! I look forward to reading the article as well.