Adding Raisins to secondary fermentation

[Julie]

As others have stated, I would not be adding raisins post fermentation and if added at the beginning of fermentation, would these then be considered the same as a sacrificial tannin? If so, then the benefits are minimal. As others have stated, add them after fermentation and you are taking the chance of off flavors in your wine.

If the purpose of adding raisins is to add body and mouthfeel and nutrients, why not just add the tannins and nutrient? I am just getting into a tannin regime and I am shocked at how much better my wine tastes when adding tannins post fermentation. There is a noticeable difference in mouthfeel.

Sometimes I wonder if the purpose of raisins comes from old time winemaking when they did not have the resources we have today. There are a few old timers around me that add lemons and limes because their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers added them. I know the reason for that was because there was no such thing as acid blend, citric acid or tartaric blend.

 

[peaches9324]

grapeman was going to add them to primary wasn't thinking about adding to secondary, just noticed the title to this thread lol just seen adding raisins. My question is will it enhance this kit in anyway and should I add the cab concentrate that I had purchased to primary or make it separately for topping off maybe? Turock what would you suggest I do with this kit? want to add color and mouth feel.

thanks

 

[joeswine]

Adding raisins

SO HERE WE GO AGAIN,PUMPKINMAN YOU SAID TO ME THAT I DO NOT RECOMMEND MLF FOR BEGINNERS,AND YOUR STATEMENT WAS( HOW ELSE ARE THEY GOING TO LEAN ARE THEY'LL JUST BE FERMENTING JUICE?) IN MY OPPION ,THAT'S CORRECT IT IS VERY RISKY FOR SOME ONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE GOOD PROCESS CONTROLS IN PLACE ,AND THEN I STATED OK ,IF THAT IS A GIVE THEN ,THEY SHOULD PROCEED AND TRY.COMPROMISED STATEMENT,YOU AGREE?

BY THE SAME STATEMENT OF WORK YOU TELL THEM IN YOUR OPPION WHAT IS CORRECT AND NOT CORRECT FOR THEM TO DO,CORRECT?WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO GIVE THEM THE PRO'S AND CON'S,WHEN RUNNING WOLF STATED HE PLACED HIS RAISINS IN PRIMARY,PRIOR TO THAT HE ASKED ME, WHEN SHOULD I ,I THEN INDICATED TO HIM THE BEST RESULTS WERE IN THE SECONDARY,BUT HE CHOSE TO PUT THEM IN THE PRIMARY,HIS CHOICE AND DIDN'T LIKE THE RESULTS .THAT WAS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T GET THE PROPER EXTRACTS FROM THE RAISINS,.NOTHING MORE,NOT IN THE PRIMARY.

WHEN AMARONE IS MADE IT IS MADE WITH A BASE WINE AND THE WINE GRAPES DRIED AND USED IN THE SECONDARY,THIS PROCESS IS NOT GOOD FOR ALL WINES BUT IT HAS IT'S ATTRIBUTES AND KNOWING WHEN AND HOW TO USE IT, IS JUST LIKE MLF NOT GOOD FOR ALL WINES ,THE TRICK IS TO KNOW WHEN TO (THINK OUTSIDE THE TRADITIONAL WINE BOX )AND AS FAR AS OXIDATION GOES THAT IS THE KEY INGREDIENT IN MAKING CERTAIN PORT WINES SO IT IS NOT WITHOUTS IT'S PRO'S ALSO.

THE KEY FOR HOMEWINE MAKING IS TO KNOW WHAT ,WHEN AND HOW TO USE ALL THE TOOLS IN YOUR WINE MAKING TOOL BOX AND IF YOUR NOT SURE THEN BY ALMEANS ASK,BUT DO NOT BE AFRAID TO THINK FOR YOUR SELF AND TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT ONLY THEN YOU WILL KNOW FOR SURE.

THIS STATEMENT IS NOT TO OFFEND ANYONE, IT'S JUST ANYONE WHO HAS FOLLOWED MY WAY OF DOING THINGS KNOWS IT'S JUST NOT RAISINS THAT ENTER THE MIX THERE ARE OTHER COMPONENTS THAT INCORPORATE THEMSELVES IN THE MIX, THAT COMBINED WITH EACH OTHER RECREATE A BETTER WINE IN THE END ,ONCE AGAIN DEPENDING ON THE WINES MAKE-UP.

ONCE AGAIN NO DISRESPECT INTENDED.

 

[Turock]

peaches---I'm really not the one to ask about this because I've NEVER made a kit wine. I hesitate to get involved in things I know nothing about because I always try to be sure I'm telling people the truth--I don't want to guess at it and lead you astray. There's lots of people who should be good at kit tweaking--they can answer better than I.

 

[Turock]

Well OK----then if you want all the benefits of raisins, why not make a real extract from them and then add it to the wine instead of adding raisins post-ferment. Anyone who doesn't understand how nutrients added to wine when it is nearly finished to dry, should do some reading on the subject. I've been doing some advanced work on the subject and the more I study it, the more of an understanding I have on not only nutrient itself, but the subject of low YAN musts always comes up too--and how to manage THAT with your nutrient protocol. These are things many winemakers don't think about.

Did you ever notice how many people here have wines that will not complete fermentation? Is this due to bad/no nutrient management or to low YAN? The two are very closely related. So when I see raisins post-ferment, all I can think about is how this is the wrong approach. A raisin extract would probably be less problematic, as extracts introduced in the post-ferment don't have the concequences of expecting tired yeast to try to manage them. You can make fruit extracts too--and use them to bulk flavor.

 

[Julie]

Turock can you explain a little more on YAN?

 

[Turock]

Most winemakers have no idea how much nitrogen their musts have. And if you don't get this nitrogen level up, then you get one of 2 things: a ferment with H2S or a stuck or sluggish ferment.

One of the professors who teaches enology, states that most musts from juices---and that includes most of what we make from our backyards--has a YAN of only about 150mg/liter. And a YAN of 140mg/L is the bare minimum level of fermentable nitrogen needed for fermentation. The only way to get these levels up to a normal range of 225 to 275mg/L is the use of nutrient. Some reading I did talked about getting the nitrogen up to 300 to 350 mg/L.

So if you use Fermaid K, it only has a nominal level of DAP--maybe not enough to get your nitrogen level up to where it needs to be. So it has been suggested that if you want to use Fermaid K, start out with Fermaid O because it has a high content of organic nitrogen. (It's not recommended to add a large initial dose of DAP because it can delay or inhibit uptake of amino acids by the yeast. A big dose of fermaid K can lead to too fast a ferment and an imbalance of uptake and useage of nitrogen compounds.) Then you split your Fermaid K dose in half and add the first dose when the cap is established and 2nd dose at 25% sugar depletion. At 1/3 sugar depletion, if the ferment is slow and the temp not very warm, then it's time to add a small dose of DAP to get the nitrogen level up to where you need it. And this is figured by knowing how much nitrogen is contributed from the DAP and Fermaid K.

DAP has lots of nitrogen--albeit inorganic. However, it is still a proper nutrient depending on what you're working with. And the enology professor recommends 1 gram DAP/L. So broken down, 1 US gal=3.79liters. So 6 gal= 22.71 liters. Total DAP dose would then be 22.71 grams. And you should divide this dose in half and pitch the first just before your yeast and the second dose before the 50% dry stage. Now the directions on a pack of DAP nutrient say 1 tsp per gal. Now I'm pretty sure this formula has been worked out by the suppliers so they can tell us how much to use.

But as you may know, some grapes--and things like honey--are real low on nitrogen. So it IS possible to test for nitrogen. It's called a Formol test and involves nasty things like formaldehyde for testing. So it's suggested to think your ferment starts around 150mg/L and add enough nutrient to get it up to at least 275mg/L. Now I knew I would regret this--but I didn't write down how much nitrogen DAP and Fermaid K add---I had already spent way TOO much time on this,over the course of several days, and was in a hurry and didn't write it down. I planned on going back and looking at it again, as I didn't think I'd have to explain this so soon after studying it--LOL.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Joe, I'm sorry that you are taking this personally, as I stated, it isn't an attack on anyone, but seeing that you are calling me out on the forum....

First and foremost, MLF is a proven process that enhances wine in positive ways, so to say that new winemakers shouldn't use MLB is wrong, just because you don't use it due to making kit wines, it doesn't mean that no one should use MLB.

Joe, comparing MLF to adding raisins? More than once you've posted about how raisins will create a secondary fermentation, this is nonsense, and yet another reason for me to try to get the correct info posted, a new winemaker that is just learning will take that info and think it is correct.
MLF isn't good for all wines because it has been tested on many whites that subsequently turned out bad, the difference is that 99.9% of wine makers understand that and do not add MLB to most whites, it isn't just a theory

The main reason that I to let new winemakers know about the risks of adding raisins is not make sure that no one adds them, but to make sure everyone is aware of the potential risks involved, the difference is that I'm not saying "don't use them because I say that new winemakers shouldn't", I'm explaining with a certain degree of knowledge and proof to back up.

You mention about thinking outside the box, you are preaching to the choir, I've tried raisins, I've co fermented, I've been successfully using the evil MLB on every batch of red wine, I've tried kits, juice buckets and fresh grapes not to mention country/fruit wines, meads, melomels, extracts, beer, spirits, I've experimented with blending yeasts, adding yeasts in succession, I may not know a whole lot, but I've experimented with plenty. Trust me Joe I'm not pulling this stuff out of my.....Back pocket.

I don't know if you've noticed, but due to some less than accurate advice posted here on WMT, other communities have made HBT the butt of many jokes, while that may or may not concern you, it concerns me.
I feel the need to try to give the correct advice, even if it means warning new winemakers about the potential risks, again, I did not say that the OP could not add raisins, I recommended that he didn't and gave supporting reason why they shouldn't, furthermore Joe, I didn't mention you when replying, why you feel the need to defend this and call me out is beyond me, if you like adding raisins, and you can control it, by all means do what you want, it is your wine.

No disrespect intended

 

[Runningwolf]

BY THE SAME STATEMENT OF WORK YOU TELL THEM IN YOUR OPPION WHAT IS CORRECT AND NOT CORRECT FOR THEM TO DO,CORRECT?WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO GIVE THEM THE PRO'S AND CON'S,WHEN RUNNING WOLF STATED HE PLACED HIS RAISINS IN PRIMARY,PRIOR TO THAT HE ASKED ME, WHEN SHOULD I ,I THEN INDICATED TO HIM THE BEST RESULTS WERE IN THE SECONDARY,BUT HE CHOSE TO PUT THEM IN THE PRIMARY,HIS CHOICE AND DIDN'T LIKE THE RESULTS .THAT WAS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T GET THE PROPER EXTRACTS FROM THE RAISINS,.NOTHING MORE,NOT IN THE PRIMARY.

This is not totally correct. I got extract from them. I understand what they do. I said it is my choice not to use them going forward because I feel it stalled my MLF. Again I am talking about juice pails not wine kits. Raisins are fine in the primary for those not wishing to do a mlf or other more advanced chemicals out there. I've used them for years and I'm in no way bashing them. The amount of sulfites on them will not effect the primary fermentation. Did you ever hear of putting oak in the last week of fermentation? NO, It's always added right added right after crush during the initial fermentation.

 

[jethro]

Thank you, Tom, for taking time to explain this so clearly.

 

[peaches9324]

peaches---I'm really not the one to ask about this because I've NEVER made a kit wine. I hesitate to get involved in things I know nothing about because I always try to be sure I'm telling people the truth--I don't want to guess at it and lead you astray. There's lots of people who should be good at kit tweaking--they can answer better than I.

thank you Turock for your honesty. It looks as though I have opened a can of worms I keep reading and there is so much knowledge here! This is the first time I've been wanting to tweak a kit might tweak 1/2 one way and the other 1/2 another way..

 

[cimbaliw]

Well Mike from Michigan, perhaps your best bet is to split a batch of red and do one half without raisins and one half with. I like the joeswine formula of 1# raisins with 4T tannins/6 gallons of wine. There's really no wrong answer here, if you want to try something... go for it. Share your results and enjoy the journey. I've had some pretty palatable mistakes.

BC

 

[byathread]

I agree with the previous poster about experimentation. I did lots of testing with control batches over the years and learned so much. Though I'm new to grape winemaking, I cut my teeth on mead fermentation for over a decade and learned via extensive research and a ton of experimentation about yeasts and oak and especially nutrient management (as honey water is by far the least nutritious medium for yeast fermentation).

I have added raisins (only at the beginning of primary) to a couple of lower end kits, and though I didn't do controls, I like the results (so far). I also have read of numerous people on this forum that have also had great results doing JoesWine's methods of adding raisins in secondary, though it seems counter-intuitive and I probably won't ever try that approach. But the proof is in the pudding. To each his own.

Personally, I always thought raisins were added to low-end kits primarily to increase the TDS which should improve body. That being said, I have always used Zante currants which clearly have a much higher skin-flesh ratio (after all, we're looking to replace a lack of skins and their goodies in low-end kits). Additionally, I've experimented with adding fermentation/finishing tannins as well as Opti-Red and Booster Rouge (though the results aren't in yet).

DAP has lots of nitrogen--albeit inorganic. However, it is still a proper nutrient depending on what you're working with. And the enology professor recommends 1 gram DAP/L. So broken down, 1 US gal=3.79liters. So 6 gal= 22.71 liters. Total DAP dose would then be 22.71 grams. And you should divide this dose in half and pitch the first just before your yeast and the second dose before the 50% dry stage. Now the directions on a pack of DAP nutrient say 1 tsp per gal. Now I'm pretty sure this formula has been worked out by the suppliers so they can tell us how much to use.

Turock, are you sure about that DAP recommendation? It seems very high to me, given my reseach, especially for a grape must. In meadmaking I typically added about 5 grams DAP total/5 gallon batch (in 2-3 smaller additions), plus about 4 grams Fermaid K (in two additions), plus aeration (during the first 50-66% sugar depletion) in many meads. This produced a fast, clean fermentation of high Brix (24-31 Brix) honey must without any off flavors and with minimal aging required before drinkability (while maxing out alcohol tolerance when making sweeter meads). And honey musts can have only 5-50 ppm YAN.

 

[Turock]

I think what you need to look at is that you're talking PPM----and the recommendation is talking about mg. So who can tell me what the PPM in relation to mg. is?? I'm still looking this over and doing more research on the whole subject. Need a chemist here!!!

 

[sour_grapes]

You're expecting a tired out yeast to metabolize the raisins, and this seems pretty risky, to me.

what it is doing is getting the already tired yeast to work again in an attempt to convert the newly added sugars, if the yeast cannot convert all of the sugars, this in turn is a source of food for any spoilage organism that may be in the wine, this is not a "strong" claim, it is a proven fact, or even as bad, say the already tired yeast gets even more stressed, then you have more potential issues, and what are we going to do when we smell the stressed, sulfur smell, add nutrients?

A raisin extract would probably be less problematic, as extracts introduced in the post-ferment don't have the concequences of expecting tired yeast to try to manage them. You can make fruit extracts too--and use them to bulk flavor.

I have scratched my head over what "tired yeasts" might mean, so went off and did some investigation. I have an idea of what may be meant by this term, and want to bounce it off you.

As you probably know, yeasts can reproduce both vegetatively (non-sexual reproduction, or budding) and sporulatively (sexual reproduction by spore formation and subsequent fusion).

Here is what I didn't know: When times are good, the yeasts that we use reproduce vegetatively; when they start to run low on food, they start producing spores to reproduce. (I don't know why this is the case.)

Sooo, do you think your "tired yeast" picture means that the yeast are sufficiently starved that they have reverted to spore production?

I do not yet know what characteristics of metabolism and fermentation accompany this change in reproductive mechanism, but am looking into it. [There is additional complexity, as I think the spores themselves can reproduce (as haploid cells) before they fuse to form diploid cells again. I don't think that concerns us here, but I could be wrong.]

 

[ibglowin]

I think what you need to look at is that you're talking PPM----and the recommendation is talking about mg. So who can tell me what the PPM in relation to mg. is?? I'm still looking this over and doing more research on the whole subject. Need a chemist here!!!

Many resources you find show mg/L the same as ppm, but its not exactly true.

Pure water at standard temperature and pressure has a density of 1 kg/L, therefore:

mg/L = mg/kg = ppm

But that is only true when using pure water at standard temperature and pressure. Any other substance will have a different density and will not be a direct conversion between mg/L and ppm.

 

[Deezil]

Turock can you explain a little more on YAN?

Most winemakers have no idea how much nitrogen their musts have. And if you don't get this nitrogen level up, then you get one of 2 things: a ferment with H2S or a stuck or sluggish ferment.

One of the professors who teaches enology, states that most musts from juices---and that includes most of what we make from our backyards--has a YAN of only about 150mg/liter. And a YAN of 140mg/L is the bare minimum level of fermentable nitrogen needed for fermentation. The only way to get these levels up to a normal range of 225 to 275mg/L is the use of nutrient. Some reading I did talked about getting the nitrogen up to 300 to 350 mg/L.

So if you use Fermaid K, it only has a nominal level of DAP--maybe not enough to get your nitrogen level up to where it needs to be. So it has been suggested that if you want to use Fermaid K, start out with Fermaid O because it has a high content of organic nitrogen. (It's not recommended to add a large initial dose of DAP because it can delay or inhibit uptake of amino acids by the yeast. A big dose of fermaid K can lead to too fast a ferment and an imbalance of uptake and useage of nitrogen compounds.) Then you split your Fermaid K dose in half and add the first dose when the cap is established and 2nd dose at 25% sugar depletion. At 1/3 sugar depletion, if the ferment is slow and the temp not very warm, then it's time to add a small dose of DAP to get the nitrogen level up to where you need it. And this is figured by knowing how much nitrogen is contributed from the DAP and Fermaid K.

DAP has lots of nitrogen--albeit inorganic. However, it is still a proper nutrient depending on what you're working with. And the enology professor recommends 1 gram DAP/L. So broken down, 1 US gal=3.79liters. So 6 gal= 22.71 liters. Total DAP dose would then be 22.71 grams. And you should divide this dose in half and pitch the first just before your yeast and the second dose before the 50% dry stage. Now the directions on a pack of DAP nutrient say 1 tsp per gal. Now I'm pretty sure this formula has been worked out by the suppliers so they can tell us how much to use.

But as you may know, some grapes--and things like honey--are real low on nitrogen. So it IS possible to test for nitrogen. It's called a Formol test and involves nasty things like formaldehyde for testing. So it's suggested to think your ferment starts around 150mg/L and add enough nutrient to get it up to at least 275mg/L. Now I knew I would regret this--but I didn't write down how much nitrogen DAP and Fermaid K add---I had already spent way TOO much time on this,over the course of several days, and was in a hurry and didn't write it down. I planned on going back and looking at it again, as I didn't think I'd have to explain this so soon after studying it--LOL.

Have you both read my Yeast Nutrients post? It's in my signature, if you haven't.............................

Thanks for that first tidbit there, Turock

DAP = 21% Nitrogen
Fermaid-K = 10% Nitrogen
Fermaid-O = 4% Nitrogen

I think what you need to look at is that you're talking PPM----and the recommendation is talking about mg. So who can tell me what the PPM in relation to mg. is?? I'm still looking this over and doing more research on the whole subject. Need a chemist here!!!

Many resources you find show mg/L the same as ppm, but its not exactly true.

Pure water at standard temperature and pressure has a density of 1 kg/L, therefore:

mg/L = mg/kg = ppm

But that is only true when using pure water at standard temperature and pressure. Any other substance will have a different density and will not be a direct conversion between mg/L and ppm.

Thanks IB... Would you have any idea if it would still be 'within reason', or the same amount of accuracy as we see with a hydrometer being +/- 1% ABV of the actual reading? Or does the density of alcohol vary from water so much, that it would affect the 'mg/L = ppm' conversion to a degree larger than 1%? I'm not awake enough yet to figure out, how to go about, figuring it out...

 

[ibglowin]

Density of pure water is ~1.0 g/ml Density of wine depends on the ABV but it is ~0.98 g/ml Pretty close to each other IMHO

 

[sdelli]

I have to admit I have tried the raisins in the secondary..... But I am crazy enough to try just about anything once or twice..... BUT.... Call it coincidence or not but this problem that I posted in the kit area is SPECIFIC to the kits I added raisins too! Just a coincidence? Hmmmm... Here is my post of the problem I have with the kits I used raisins in the secondary.....

Ok... I know we talked about this over and over but this is killing me.... This is my second kit that has done this to me.... I usually use fresh juice or grapes but occasionally make a kit from time to time for fun. None of my juice or grapes have ever come up with this but it is my second kit that recently has. I have a WE kit of Sangiovese that is about 10 months old and a Merlot about the same age. Been in the barrel for a few months and now has been in the carboy for a couple. The levels are ok as far as ph and so2. But I opened the carboy up to take a taste last night and the wine has a distinct odor from it that is not pleasant at all. The best description I can say is it almost smells like a chemical.... Like the smell of kmeta in the wine. But I know it is not since the level is not that high. Taste is off as well since our smell effects our taste so much.... It feels like I can taste it. I am thinking of trying some Reduless in it to see if it could be an h2s problem..... The last kit was a Merlot with the same smell..... Is this what kits do? Again, I usually don't make them so most my experience is with juice and grapes and never had this..... Anyone ever have this smell come up in their kit wine before?


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making

 

[Turock]

sour grapes--As we all know, yeast that doesn't have enough nitrogen can produce H2S and volatile acids. And yeast at the end of their life--at the end of the ferment--can no longer utilize nitrogen. Which is why there are limits to when you can add nutrient to an active ferment. I guess I don't know the chemistry of how yeast cells lead their life. I'm glad you're working on that and look forward to hearing more of what you've found. I can only spend so much time on reasearch--I can always use a hand!!!