Adding Raisins to secondary fermentation

[mikefrommichigan]

I have been reading some of the posts on adding raisins during secondary fermentation, but have not seen why.
Why would I add raisins, and what is the expected outcome?

Thanks

 

[vernsgal]

some covered that here:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/why-add-raisins-38092/

 

[mikefrommichigan]

Thanks. Just the info I was looking for. I must have missed that post.

 

[3274mike]

I believe its for tannins but not positive on that . mostly used when using concentrate with no grape skins to get the tannins from.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Mike, I'm going to urge you to not add raisins to your wine, there are so many reasons why it is a bad idea. Just look at it this way...have you ever seen or heard of a commercial winery adding raisins to their wine....let me answer that that for you...NO!

 

[3274mike]

Just out of curiosity(because I have never added raisins always used powdered tannin) why not. There are a lot of recipes out there that call for raisins. Just asking to be curious and sounds like a good topic.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Wine Making mobile app

 

[Pumpkinman]

Mike,
The addition of raisins is a risk in every way...
I have read that it has been justified as "it starts secondary fermentation" , this is total nonsense, the only secondary fermentation that I know of is MLF, the addition of raisins to the secondary restarts primary fermentation, getting already tired or potentially stressed yeast started again in an attempt to process the newly added nutrients, this in itself is risky, if the yeast cannot process all of the nutrients, the nutrients left in the wine become nutrients for potential spoilage organisms.

The reason why this "secondary fermentation" is so slow is that the yeast have a difficult time trying to process these nutrients, there isn't a "nice light fermentation" taking place...

Furthermore, there is a reason why it is highly recommended to add the last nutrient addition no later than 1/3 of fermentation completion; if this doesn't make you stop and think about why you would add raisins to your wine, think about why you should add an oxidized product to your wine?

The misconception that The raisins themselves will cause a slight MLF on their own, is absolutely impossible, raisins can add enough sugar and nutrients to stimulate the yeast into fermenting again, they cannot in any way cause a MLF, you need Malolactic Bacteria, wild or added by the winemaker, to stimulate MLF.

There is more than one reason why you will NEVER hear of any winery that is adding raisins to their wines. ......

 

[3274mike]

thanks pumpkinman this is good to know and why us newbies ask questions

 

[Turock]

I just can't agree more with what Tom said. And I so totally agree with "secondary fermentation." This is one of the biggest misnomers in winemaking! If you want to use raisins, be sure to do it in the primary---not post-ferment.

 

[Runningwolf]

I concur with the other two posters, only add raisins during primary fermentation. If anything they'll prevent a wanted mlf from happening. They are full of preservatives. Anyone telling you to put them in otherwise is kidding themselves. I used to always put them in the primary but stopped doing that last year. I have replaced them with oak dust and I am liking the results better. Remember, these are our opinions and others may feel different. Everyone has their own tastes and styles. But ours is right

 

[LoneStarLori]

I think stating that adding raisins is a "risk in every way" is pretty strong. I have used them several times with good results in improving both body and mouthfeel. These were all done on kits (not fresh grapes) and at no time did it start a secondary fermentation. I usually add them near the end of fermentation right before first racking when the SG is under 1.02.

Pumpkinman you say "There is more than one reason why you will NEVER hear of any winery that is adding raisins to their wines. ....."
I can not say I have heard of them doing it, but I have not looked into it either. However, I DO know that some kits come with raisins and quite a few come with dried grape skins. These are always the more expensive kits. Here is a $200 kit that comes with raisins: Kit with raisins.

MikefromMichigan didn't say if he was doing a kit or fresh juice. I don't see a reason anyone would want to do this to fresh grapes but, if someone wants to take a $100 kit and try to make it behave and taste more like a $200 kit, why not? I don't do it to every kit I make, but I can tell you it makes a difference it if is done right.

 

[Runningwolf]

Lori you make a good point. I think some of the discussion is not to add them after primary fermentation but always add them in the very beginning if you're going to use them.

 

[Turock]

Go look at the original question--adding them in the secondary. That is particularly what Tom is addressing.

Lori--I'm not sure about your approach on adding them so close to the end of the ferment. You are out of nutrient at that point, and don't really want to add any THEN. You're expecting a tired out yeast to metabolize the raisins, and this seems pretty risky, to me. I still say, if you want to add raisins--do it in the beginning of the ferment.

 

[Julie]

Alright, here is my question, when you say "raisins" what exactly are you talking about? Are you talking about the raisins you buy in a grocery store? And the raisins that are in kits, are these raisins, again, the grocery store kind or are they the made from the same grape the kit is in kit?

 

[LoneStarLori]

Julie, the raisins I use when I add them are Sunmaid without any preservatives. I rinse them but do not chop them.

Now, regarding adding them in the secondary, I guess this goes back to the definition of secondary. Are we talking about adding them when we transfer to secondary vessel, regardless of SG? Or after the wine is as dry as it's going to get, then adding them. With the exception of the dried skins that came with my Shiraz?Viognier kit, I add them near the end 1.03 or less. I have never done it when it is below 1.00.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Lori, I'd bet that the raisins (which are pretty much phased out of most newer and premium kits) are not something that was bought off the shelf at your local supermarket, furthermore, this isn't my personal opinion, there is scientific proof to back up the claims, this topic has been beaten to death, but to be honest, I don't doubt for a minute that raisins gave your kit a better mouthfeel and body, I'm not saying that it won't, what I am trying to warn winemakers of the list of potential and probable risks involved, the first being the misinformation that raisins are creating a secondary fermentation, it isn't happening, what it is doing is getting the already tired yeast to work again in an attempt to convert the newly added sugars, if the yeast cannot convert all of the sugars, this in turn is a source of food for any spoilage organism that may be in the wine, this is not a "strong" claim, it is a proven fact, or even as bad, say the already tired yeast gets even more stressed, then you have more potential issues, and what are we going to do when we smell the stressed, sulfur smell, add nutrients? You really can't at that point, the wine should be at this point almost or completely fermented to dry, if you add nutrients guess what can potential happen to the nutrients sitting there in the wine...yep, you guessed it, any spoilage organisms will jump on that and the sugar like it is a buffet line.

Secondary Fermentation is also known as MLF, and we all know that raisins do not cause a wine to go through MLF.

Lori if you are referencing the All Juice Kits from Mosti Mondiale, they are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to kits, I've talked to a few of the bigger distributors and even they chuckle at the "All Juice" kits, again, I believe that given enough time and care, they can become a good wine, so yes, I'm surprised that the "All Juice" kits don't come with more than raisins.

Lori, trust me, I am happy that it is working for you and a few others that have used raisins, I did too, my goal is to try to give the best info that I can, the whole point is to make better wine, and better wine makers, this is why I warn new and not so new wine makers, I'm not telling you that you have to stop using them, I look at it kind of like when I was teaching my kids to drive, one day we rolled up to a stop sign on a back road, my son came to a rolling stop (not totally stopping, but just enough momentum so see if anyone was coming down the road), I asked him what in Gods name he was doing, I told him that he has to come to a complete stop, he reassured me that his friend billy did that all the time and never got into an accident, I let my son know that it doesn't matter how Billy drives, that statistically, it was only a matter of time before good ole Billy got a ticket, or worse yet, got into an accident.

Moral of the story...don't be like Billy, don't add raisins to your wine, it is only a matter of time before a great batch of wine goes south...lol...seriously though, Lori you seem to have a really great passion for making wine, and I commend you, please don't take this as a personal attack on you, your wine, or your wine making methods, I wish that I could send you a grape skin pack made from fresh destemmed and crushed grapes, you would do cart wheels! The difference is night and day, the grapes are wine grapes, not oxidized and so forth.

Again, this is not an attack on anyone, but as a Mod, I really feel compelled to try to steer our member in the right direction, if everyone knows of the potential risks and then choose to use them anyway, well, so be it, I've done my part. I don't claim to know everything, there are members that are light years ahead of me, but I do know plenty of really experienced wine makers on the home wine making and professional wine making ends of the spectrum that I can contact when I have questions that I cannot answer, I'll never intentionally give bad advice, and I know when to say "yep, I'm wrong".

Ok, that's my story, I'm sticking to it.

Respectfully,

Tom

 

[peaches9324]

Mike, I'm going to urge you to not add raisins to your wine, there are so many reasons why it is a bad idea. Just look at it this way...have you ever seen or heard of a commercial winery adding raisins to their wine....let me answer that that for you...NO!

so I shouldn't add raisons to the thin vino Itliano cab kit? I bought some sun country 46 oz cab concentrate to add to it

thanks

 

[peaches9324]

sorry tom you had posted that while I was typing and thank you for the good info!

 

[grapeman]

If you are going to add them do it when you first start the kit. Adding it later to wine is like making a fruit infused wine where you make the wine first and then put fruit in it hoping to infuse the fruit flavor and what goodies (or badies) the fruit might impart. In this case it is dried grape fruits. I'm not passionate one way or another about anyone wanting to do it, but I would never tell anyone to wait until they rack the wine to add them. We work hard to keep our wines topped up to help prevent oxidation and off flavors, why add oxidized grapes to it to impart that oxidized flavor later?

 

[Turock]

And I would also add that if you're looking for better mouthfeel and better body in your wines, there are better additions to make than raisins. Such as opti-red, opti-white, tannins of all sorts, and products like Noblesse. Using fermentation tannins adds lots of mid-palate structure and also acts to stabilize color.

You know--back in the "old days" when I started winemaking, we didn't have all these neat additions to add to wine. So maybe the addition of raisins was found to add what was lacking. But over the past 25 years, I've seen so many new products come to market for home winemakers that was never there before. We can manipulate our wines now to be exactly what we want them to be. I prefer to use these products over something like raisins.