Wine on skins

[wineview]

What is the maximum time I can keep the wine on skins after snapping the fermenter shut. This would be skins on a juice bucket.

 

[salcoco]

wine on skins should be mixed at least twice per day. final removal is once fermentation is complete and wine is racked skins are pressed.

 

[winemaker81]

From what I read, in Burgundy, EM is performed up to 90 days. Folks on this forum have done EM up to 8 weeks.

 

[wineview]

From what I read, in Burgundy, EM is performed up to 90 days. Folks on this forum have done EM up to 8 weeks.

This is for a Malbec.

And one other question. I know you answered but can’t find the thread. I can in fact add Kmeta the day before pitching a starter in a juice bucket to take care of wild yeast Correct?

 

[winemaker81]

This is for a Malbec.

And one other question. I know you answered but can’t find the thread. I can in fact add Kmeta the day before pitching a starter in a juice bucket to take care of wild yeast Correct?

It doesn't matter the varietal -- EM should be fine (assuming that what you want) for any red Vinifera.

Yes, you can add K-meta the day before inoculating. My take on it is that the 24 hour delay gives the SO2 time to do it's job on microorganisms, which depletes the amount of free SO2, which reduces any potential impact on the commercial yeast.

 

[jjw129]

I can piggy back off of Winemaker81, ultimately it's up to you. How tannic do you want your wine? A malbec probably not as long as a bolder cab sauv or merlot. Doing an extended maceration, leaving the skin and stems on beyond fermentation, will give it that bolder earthy taste. The one thing to consider is once fermentation is completed you don't want to continue to punch the top as this can spoil the wine with excess oxygen. So, if you're not doing a regular punch the skins are more susceptible to molding. Food for thought.

 

[hawkwing]

I can piggy back off of Winemaker81, ultimately it's up to you. How tannic do you want your wine? A malbec probably not as long as a bolder cab sauv or merlot. Doing an extended maceration, leaving the skin and stems on beyond fermentation, will give it that bolder earthy taste. The one thing to consider is once fermentation is completed you don't want to continue to punch the top as this can spoil the wine with excess oxygen. So, if you're not doing a regular punch the skins are more susceptible to molding. Food for thought.

Sometimes solids sink to the bottom after fermentation.

 

[David Violante]

Also, with some varietals you may not want to do an EM. I’ve done an EM with Concords in the past and this year am going to try a shorter time on the skins to see about reducing the “foxiness” of the wine. I’ve never tasted fox but that’s what ‘they’ say it is in the articles.… Also, it’s always going to be what it is. By that I mean doing an EM on a Concord is going to make it more Concord-ish, not closer to a Cab or Merlot or Frontenac or anything else.

 

[wineview]

So here is an update. I brought the juice home it is 64F. I added k meta, pectic enzyme, Fermaid O, three cups of sugar to boost the SG and two pouches of grape skins. It’s been about three hours and I was surprised to see that it is fermenting. I was planning on pitching a BM 4x4 starter in about 20 hours. That would be 24 hours since adding kmeta. Will I be ok with this plan? The active fermentation has me a bit concerned. I did this last year minus the kmeta and the wine turned out fine. I don’t however remember it fermenting so early. Do I need to pitch the 4x4 now?

 

[winemaker81]

Do I need to pitch the 4x4 now?

If you're pitching, and not making a starter, I'd do it now. If you're making a starter, make it now.

I'd expect indigenous yeast to take a bit longer to kick into gear, but there's no telling when the juice was actually pressed. It's obviously had time to reproduce, and as Ian Malcom said, nature will find a way.

There is no need to be concerned. The BM 4x4 will probably overtake the indigenous yeast.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

So here is an update. I brought the juice home it is 64F. I added k meta, pectic enzyme, Fermaid O, three cups of sugar to boost the SG and two pouches of grape skins. It’s been about three hours and I was surprised to see that it is fermenting. I was planning on pitching a BM 4x4 starter in about 20 hours. Will I be ok with this plan? The active fermentation has me a bit concerned. I did this last year minus the kmeta and the wine turned out fine. I don’t however remember it fermenting so early. Do I need to pitch the 4x4 now?

It's a bit late now but I would have added the yeast food (fermaid and sugar) after your overnight maceration... all that sugar and nitrogen and the yeast must have decided it's go time. BM4X4 is competitive factor active so if you pitch it now it will most likely take over

 

[BarrelMonkey]

@winemaker81 great minds think alike! (And fools seldom differ... )

 

[wineview]

If you're pitching, and not making a starter, I'd do it now. If you're making a starter, make it now.

I'd expect indigenous yeast to take a bit longer to kick into gear, but there's no telling when the juice was actually pressed. It's obviously had time to reproduce, and as Ian Malcom said, nature will find a way.

There is no need to be concerned. The BM 4x4 will probably overtake the indigenous yeast.

I was going to make a starter but under these circumstances, will pitching dry yeast work as well?

 

[winemaker81]

I was going to make a starter but under these circumstances, will pitching dry yeast work as well?

You can pitch now.

I'm in favor of starters, and if you make one now and add it first thing in the morning, the BM 4x4 will dominate quicker, as you'll have a larger initial colony.

 

[wineview]

You can pitch now.

I'm in favor of starters, and if you make one now and add it first thing in the morning, the BM 4x4 will dominate quicker, as you'll have a larger initial colony.

Thank you sir.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I'm in favor of starters, and if you make one now and add it first thing in the morning, the BM 4x4 will dominate quicker...

@wineview I hope it worked out!

Again I'm a bit late, but unless it's for sparkling wine secondary fermentation (which is a whole different beast) I always make and pitch my starter same day. (I've done it with BM4X4 too, though it was for elderberry wine)

Brief protocol:
- 1g yeast per gal wine (eg 5g/5 gal)
- 1.25x yeast weight of Go-ferm (eg 6.25g)
- Resuspend Go-Ferm in 20x weight of water (eg 125mL) heated to 110 F
- Cool to 105F. Sprinkle yeast on top and wait 5 min
- Stir vigorously and wait 15 min
- Slowly add ~ 1/2 volume of must/juice to starter. Wait 5 min
- Repeat must/juice addition until starter temperature is within 18 F of bulk must/juice.
- Mix starter in to must/juice

It takes less than 1 hr. For large volumes, the culture temperature will hold steady but for small volumes I use a heat bath to do the initial rehydration until I see signs of yeast activity.

 

[wineview]

@wineview I hope it worked out!

Again I'm a bit late, but unless it's for sparkling wine secondary fermentation (which is a whole different beast) I always make and pitch my starter same day. (I've done it with BM4X4 too, though it was for elderberry wine)

Brief protocol:
- 1g yeast per gal wine (eg 5g/5 gal)
- 1.25x yeast weight of Go-ferm (eg 6.25g)
- Resuspend Go-Ferm in 20x weight of water (eg 125mL) heated to 110 F
- Cool to 105F. Sprinkle yeast on top and wait 5 min
- Stir vigorously and wait 15 min
- Slowly add ~ 1/2 volume of must/juice to starter. Wait 5 min
- Repeat must/juice addition until starter temperature is within 18 F of bulk must/juice.
- Mix starter in to must/juice

It takes less than 1 hr. For large volumes, the culture temperature will hold steady but for small volumes I use a heat bath to do the initial rehydration until I see signs of yeast activity.

It did thanks. My starter protocol is the same as what you described. This morning the wine had a vigorous fermentation going.

 

[wineview]

It's a bit late now but I would have added the yeast food (fermaid and sugar) after your overnight maceration... all that sugar and nitrogen and the yeast must have decided it's go time. BM4X4 is competitive factor active so if you pitch it now it will most likely take over

Now that I think of it, I should have held off on the nutrient.

 

[wineview]

I can piggy back off of Winemaker81, ultimately it's up to you. How tannic do you want your wine? A malbec probably not as long as a bolder cab sauv or merlot. Doing an extended maceration, leaving the skin and stems on beyond fermentation, will give it that bolder earthy taste. The one thing to consider is once fermentation is completed you don't want to continue to punch the top as this can spoil the wine with excess oxygen. So, if you're not doing a regular punch the skins are more susceptible to molding. Food for thought.

Are you saying the skins are susceptible to mold even under a snapped lid and airlock?

 

[winemaker81]

Are you saying the skins are susceptible to mold even under a snapped lid and airlock?

From reading the posts of the folks doing longer EM, mold is not a problem.