Who has done some natural fermentations?

[cdevrard]

Was reading a Michael Polan (sp?) book the other night (love his books) and he was talking about various ferments. Fermented veggies, cheese and of course wine/alcohol. In the book he says that wild ferments usually don't go over 5% abv. Is this so? Before the advent of our modern "killer yeasts" was all wine just lower abv?

Has anyone here experimented with wild ferments? What were your experiences and results?

Thanks for sharing!

CE

 

[BernardSmith]

I wonder what fruit - apart from cultivated grapes for wine makers - contains more sugar than would result in a fermentation greater than 5.5% ABV? If that is true, then there would be no reason for wild yeasts in their natural environment to have evolved to survive in or ferment sugars at concentrations of greater than 5.5% ABV

 

[cmason1957]

That 5% max for natural ferments is certainly bs. I have done Norton and Vidal both with no added yeasts. The Vidal went to dry and was at about 12.5%. The Norton is at about 14%. I don't suggest doing natural ferments but both of these cane from a grower who spreads his pressings back over his vines.

 

[acorn]

I made several of my first wines ever (non-grape ones) through fermentation by wild yeast. I did chaptalize the must, of course, which made it go over 10% alcohol by volume in the end (at least, it definitely tasted so). As I did so blindly (without a hydrometer, but rather following default recipes) most times I ended up with sweet wines with lots of alcohol. Perhaps the wild yeast was not able to ferment to dryness, at this point I cannot say.

 

[cdevrard]

Very interesting. Were the pressings before fermentation or after fermentation? And were they spread at the roots of the vines? And would the yeasts from this carry over from year to year or would it just be a temporary thing?

That 5% max for natural ferments is certainly bs. I have done Norton and Vidal both with no added yeasts. The Vidal went to dry and was at about 12.5%. The Norton is at about 14%. I don't suggest doing natural ferments but both of these cane from a grower who spreads his pressings back over his vines.

 

[cdevrard]

Were these grape wines? So you did a crush, chaptalized and then just let her rip?

I made several of my first wines ever (non-grape ones) through fermentation by wild yeast. I did chaptalize the must, of course, which made it go over 10% alcohol by volume in the end (at least, it definitely tasted so). As I did so blindly (without a hydrometer, but rather following default recipes) most times I ended up with sweet wines with lots of alcohol. Perhaps the wild yeast was not able to ferment to dryness, at this point I cannot say.

 

[acorn]

Yeah, pretty much 80% of those first wines that I ever made were non-grape berries and apples, but I tried a couple batches with table grapes sold in groceries. Cannot say I am entirely unhappy with the grape ones, but I definitely admit they could have been much better if I knew what I was doing. So, the wild yeast itself may not have been that big of an issue, but you have to be more sparing with it, as not everything you do, can make it ferment the way you want it. Often times you can find yourself with a stuck fermentation using natural wild yeast as it is not very robust when it comes to changes you introduce to your wine, such as sugar additions, acid adjustments, temperature fluctuations, etc. For this reason, I would personally advise going with a commercial strain, unless you really have no choice.

 

[cmason1957]

Very interesting. Were the pressings before fermentation or after fermentation? And were they spread at the roots of the vines? And would the yeasts from this carry over from year to year or would it just be a temporary thing?

Whites are always before fermentation. Reds after. I don't know the process he uses, for sure.

 

[WineQuest]

I am not a big fan of the term 'natural' and 'killer' yeasts. All yeasts are natural. There is not some genetically modified yeast out there. The commercially available yeasts are natural yeasts from various locations throughout the world that have simply been identified and isolated then reproduced without outside contaminating yeasts. They are still very natural and very organic. The only difference between using commercially isolated and feral yeasts is the winemaker gets some choice in the ferment.

 

[DoctorCAD]

I am not a big fan of the term 'natural' and 'killer' yeasts. All yeasts are natural. There is not some genetically modified yeast out there. The commercially available yeasts are natural yeasts from various locations throughout the world that have simply been identified and isolated then reproduced without outside contaminating yeasts. They are still very natural and very organic. The only difference between using commercially isolated and feral yeasts is the winemaker gets some choice in the ferment.

+1

Also, some areas have been using a perticular strain of yeast for so long, that it is now the "natural" yeast in that area. It is still a specialized yeast, just that it overwhelmed the other strains in the area by sheer volume.

 

[cdevrard]

Interesting, a google search on "genetically modified yeasts" returns a bunch of results.

Anyhow, my goal here was/is to get information/data from folks who have used natural fermentations, or to put it another way, used no commercial yeast and relied only on the naturally occurring ones.

Again, thanks for any experiences/data/info!

Chris E.

 

[ShawnDTurner]

I love ambient fermentations! The key to them finishing is nutrients. I have done quite a few of them that completed to dryness with no issues. If you get to a point were it does not finish, you should have a commercial strain to pitch in to finish the job. In my opinion, all fermentation should start naturally for the first few days and then pitch your commercial strain.

 

[cdevrard]

Shawn, that is pretty cool. What type of fruits have you used? Grapes, others? Do you grow your own or buy from a vineyard? Did you study this process or just learn by doing?

Thanks for sharing.

CE

I love ambient fermentations! The key to them finishing is nutrients. I have done quite a few of them that completed to dryness with no issues. If you get to a point were it does not finish, you should have a commercial strain to pitch in to finish the job. In my opinion, all fermentation should start naturally for the first few days and then pitch your commercial strain.

 

[seth8530]

There is nothing inherently wrong with using the yeast that is available from the fruit. But, I feel like the winemaker is definitly letting things up to chance by doing this.. Plus, it can make reproducing results hard.

 

[ShawnDTurner]

Ce. I have fermented...naturally, apple, blackberries, blueberries and grapes. I buy my grapes, I do have vines but just a few. I learned from studying and by doing. Ce...I hope you give it go.