dangerdave
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They were dried fruit from the bulk food store.
when good wines gone bad
- Thread starter joeswine
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They were dried fruit from the bulk food store.
dangerdave
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I agree totally, Joe. Experimentation is the key to becoming a good wine maker. Anyone can follow directions and make a good wine from a kit. For the newcomer, this is essential to the learning process. However, when you have moved past being a "kit-maker"---you will know when that time has come---you can take a cheap kit and make it good, or take a good kit and make it great! Finally, creating your own recipes using grapes or fruit (or maybe both!) is really the pinnacle of wine making.
Once you "step outside that box" (as Joe would say), you start to think of what might be possible. A kit becomes a canvas on which you can paint a picture of flavor of your own creation.
Dang, I'm starting to sound like Joe!
Once you "step outside that box" (as Joe would say), you start to think of what might be possible. A kit becomes a canvas on which you can paint a picture of flavor of your own creation.
Dang, I'm starting to sound like Joe!
Makes total sense...
joeswine
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Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kite from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it.
Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started.
Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps.
Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.
Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred.
Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more.
Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.
Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir).
Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it.
Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase.
Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started.
Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps.
Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.
Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred.
Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more.
Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.
Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir).
Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it.
Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase.
joeswine
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(Just so everyone knows why they are seeing these pics again, we pushed everything forward because we are going to give an update tonight on our Sangiovese Kit. )
10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak.
Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy.
For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine.
When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine.
We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more.
We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy.
As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.
Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out.
10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak.
Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy.
For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine.
When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine.
We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more.
We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy.
As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.
Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out.
joeswine
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Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation:
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged.
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at.
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content.
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster.
Here's our observation:
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged.
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at.
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content.
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster.
joeswine
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oak tannins
YES,first it will add body and texture to the wine ,give it stability,it will also add some oak flavor .when added in the beginning you taste a lot of oak,but that will subside after a short will and the mixture will stabilize and become rich while the oak strength will then slowly dissipate.
I enjoy thinking outside the box yet still trying to stay within the para matures of the wines description,some people ask why you need to do all that ,just make what is natural in nature,but today's nature isn't giving us home wine makers the best it can,it's either cut as in raw juice or concentrated as in a kit ,I tried to define where the line is between what should be and what is,that's just my why.
yours.repectfully jp
YES,first it will add body and texture to the wine ,give it stability,it will also add some oak flavor .when added in the beginning you taste a lot of oak,but that will subside after a short will and the mixture will stabilize and become rich while the oak strength will then slowly dissipate.
I enjoy thinking outside the box yet still trying to stay within the para matures of the wines description,some people ask why you need to do all that ,just make what is natural in nature,but today's nature isn't giving us home wine makers the best it can,it's either cut as in raw juice or concentrated as in a kit ,I tried to define where the line is between what should be and what is,that's just my why.
yours.repectfully jp
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Very good reading on this kit so far. I had never heard of the "age line" before. Just so I'm clear: your post states you have 5 gallons of wine, but I believe you started with 6. Have you lost an entire gallon in the process so far, or was some of that saved off for topping up later? Thanks.
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joeswine
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dropping back
THAT was correct started with 6 gallons fermented down about 1/2 gallon so instead of topping off I would rather rack down to a five and have the original for topping off if needed ,or use it in another wine.
Now I have a five gallon at the correct level ,see!
THAT was correct started with 6 gallons fermented down about 1/2 gallon so instead of topping off I would rather rack down to a five and have the original for topping off if needed ,or use it in another wine.
Now I have a five gallon at the correct level ,see!
dangerdave
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That's what I do. I'm with Joe on this one. I am very much for "racking down". Six gallon fermenter, to a six gallon secondary, to a five gallon carboy for clearing. Any extra gets placed in a smaller container (half gallon jug, for example), for use in topping up during clearing stage.
Hope I am not reading your post wrong. You are never ever to put a wine kit through MLF. It is balanced in such a manner that it is not required. Also, any sorbate associated with a kit can ruin the kit if it goes through MLF.
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I agree with Robie not to do a mlf on a kit. However if you wish to do it on the Chilean juice that would be ok. It's something I am still playing around with. Again along with what Robie said if you start a mlf, you cannot use Sorbate unless if you tested the wine and are positive it went 100% of the way through mlf. If it didn't finish and you use sorbate you'll ruin your wine with a geranium smell. There is no fixing it.
With that said, in the past it was rare for someone to sweeten this type of wine anyways which meant there was no need for the sorbate. Now a days, California is sneaking sugar into some of there reds. They can leagally do it up to .5% rs and not report it on their label. NOTE: I said .5% not 5%
With that said, in the past it was rare for someone to sweeten this type of wine anyways which meant there was no need for the sorbate. Now a days, California is sneaking sugar into some of there reds. They can leagally do it up to .5% rs and not report it on their label. NOTE: I said .5% not 5%
joeswine
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SANGIOVESE tasting
It has now been a couple months since Katie and I started the picture thread the SANGIOVESE kit .Thursday will do a tasting and and move forward to the bottling and the final touches of the wine ,go back and read pictorials for you newbies .................. Say tuned
It has now been a couple months since Katie and I started the picture thread the SANGIOVESE kit .Thursday will do a tasting and and move forward to the bottling and the final touches of the wine ,go back and read pictorials for you newbies .................. Say tuned
dangerdave
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THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TEMORARILY HIJACKED
OK, PAY ATTENTION FELLOW WINEMAKERS!!!
I first off, want to thank Joe for this great thread. He has taught us all how to make better wine---especially me! He has inspired me to look past the ordinary, and think outside of the norm. Let me explain.
At the Luva Bella Luncheon in early April, along with some of our favorate forum winemakers (you know who you are!), I picked up some of the Chilean juice buckets that had just come in. One of them was six gallons of a nice dark Cabernet Sauvignon. Now, I have advanced to the point in my own winemaking experience that I just can't leave a batch "unmessed-around-with". All of my kits get tweaked, modified, or enhanced in some way. For me, it could be no different with these juice buckets. The juice smelled wonderful! The color was rich and dark. I knew just by looking at it that this one was going to be nice! In addition, this one was going to be for my birthday celebration---my 50th---coming up this September. As a heavy red, I realized that it might still be a bit "young" by the end of summer, but what the heck, I'd drink some anyway, and put the rest up to age appropriately.
Upon returning from northern Ohio with my juice buckets, I started them up immediately. After moving it to my basement Lab, I strapped one of my brew belts around the bucket of Cab Sauv and let it sit. The EC-1118 yeast (already present in the bucket) did it's thing. With a starting specific gravety of 1.090, it took a perfect ten days for the must to drop to 0.992. Just for good measure, I let it sit for three more days. The finished SG was 0.990 at 74F.
Now, Joe enters our story. Having been a regular lurker on Joe's threads, I piped in with a few questions about Joe's technique for introducing fruit (or raisins) and tannin (or oak) to a secondary or post fermentation batch of wine. Joe, courteous as always, answered my inqueries with zeal! I recalled Joe writing, "...raisins, in the secondary are the only way to go- in the secondary. In my opinion is only a conflict other wise and no benefit to the winemaker..." and "[in] THE ENDING AT LEAST YOU HAVE TRIED TO PUT YOUR STAMP ON THE FINISH PRODUCT AND MADE IT YOURS. THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX." Well, I didn't have a box, but I had a bucket. So, I thought outside the bucket!
In preparation for this day, I had stopped at a bulk food store near Marion, Ohio on my trip to Luva Bella. One of the things I had purchase was two pounds of dried currants. After the Cab Sauv was dry, I racked the wine into a six-and-a-half gallon carboy holding the dried currants and about half a cup of medium toasted French oak chips. For added personalization, I topped up the carboy with half a gallon of my "Black Lab" dry blackberry wine (2012). This was the 20th of April (420 for all you hippies!). Three weeks past as the wine sat and blended with the added flavors.
On May 12th, I gave the wine a first tasting. It totally blew my mind. Absolutely unbelievable! And I am not exaggerating in the least. I like red wines---well, all wines really---but reds mostly. In deference to my lovely wife, most of what I have made to date is white and/or sweet. Just last Fall, I had begun making some nice dry reds for myself and the few people I know who appreciate them. I have been to many wine festivals, wineries, and tasting events over the years, but the wine I had just made was by far---for my own personal preferfence---the best I have ever had. Let me make myself clear: the wine I just made, barely a month old, was better than anything I had ever tasted. I don't know how, and I am not completely sure why, but there it is! No youth, no tartness, no bitterness, no fizz. It tastes like it was just drawn from a barrel that had sat for years in a nice cool place, aging mellowly. Remarkable! The kicker was when I had Johnna try it. She hates reds---literally. If there was nothing in the world to drink but red wine, she would die of dehyration. After she tasted a small sample of this, she looked shocked, and said it was "very good". She further remarked that something like this might get her to like red wine. That's like Christian Schmucker telling you that your grape jam is delicious!
Thank you, Joe. You were absolutely right. I'm sorry I ever doubted you. My oak and raisins are hereby relagated to the secondary from this day forth! For those of you who have not tried this---or think that primary application is the best---give it up! You have to try it!
I'm done with my hijacking. You can have your thread back, now.
OK, PAY ATTENTION FELLOW WINEMAKERS!!!
I first off, want to thank Joe for this great thread. He has taught us all how to make better wine---especially me! He has inspired me to look past the ordinary, and think outside of the norm. Let me explain.
At the Luva Bella Luncheon in early April, along with some of our favorate forum winemakers (you know who you are!), I picked up some of the Chilean juice buckets that had just come in. One of them was six gallons of a nice dark Cabernet Sauvignon. Now, I have advanced to the point in my own winemaking experience that I just can't leave a batch "unmessed-around-with". All of my kits get tweaked, modified, or enhanced in some way. For me, it could be no different with these juice buckets. The juice smelled wonderful! The color was rich and dark. I knew just by looking at it that this one was going to be nice! In addition, this one was going to be for my birthday celebration---my 50th---coming up this September. As a heavy red, I realized that it might still be a bit "young" by the end of summer, but what the heck, I'd drink some anyway, and put the rest up to age appropriately.
Upon returning from northern Ohio with my juice buckets, I started them up immediately. After moving it to my basement Lab, I strapped one of my brew belts around the bucket of Cab Sauv and let it sit. The EC-1118 yeast (already present in the bucket) did it's thing. With a starting specific gravety of 1.090, it took a perfect ten days for the must to drop to 0.992. Just for good measure, I let it sit for three more days. The finished SG was 0.990 at 74F.
Now, Joe enters our story. Having been a regular lurker on Joe's threads, I piped in with a few questions about Joe's technique for introducing fruit (or raisins) and tannin (or oak) to a secondary or post fermentation batch of wine. Joe, courteous as always, answered my inqueries with zeal! I recalled Joe writing, "...raisins, in the secondary are the only way to go- in the secondary. In my opinion is only a conflict other wise and no benefit to the winemaker..." and "[in] THE ENDING AT LEAST YOU HAVE TRIED TO PUT YOUR STAMP ON THE FINISH PRODUCT AND MADE IT YOURS. THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX." Well, I didn't have a box, but I had a bucket. So, I thought outside the bucket!
In preparation for this day, I had stopped at a bulk food store near Marion, Ohio on my trip to Luva Bella. One of the things I had purchase was two pounds of dried currants. After the Cab Sauv was dry, I racked the wine into a six-and-a-half gallon carboy holding the dried currants and about half a cup of medium toasted French oak chips. For added personalization, I topped up the carboy with half a gallon of my "Black Lab" dry blackberry wine (2012). This was the 20th of April (420 for all you hippies!). Three weeks past as the wine sat and blended with the added flavors.
On May 12th, I gave the wine a first tasting. It totally blew my mind. Absolutely unbelievable! And I am not exaggerating in the least. I like red wines---well, all wines really---but reds mostly. In deference to my lovely wife, most of what I have made to date is white and/or sweet. Just last Fall, I had begun making some nice dry reds for myself and the few people I know who appreciate them. I have been to many wine festivals, wineries, and tasting events over the years, but the wine I had just made was by far---for my own personal preferfence---the best I have ever had. Let me make myself clear: the wine I just made, barely a month old, was better than anything I had ever tasted. I don't know how, and I am not completely sure why, but there it is! No youth, no tartness, no bitterness, no fizz. It tastes like it was just drawn from a barrel that had sat for years in a nice cool place, aging mellowly. Remarkable! The kicker was when I had Johnna try it. She hates reds---literally. If there was nothing in the world to drink but red wine, she would die of dehyration. After she tasted a small sample of this, she looked shocked, and said it was "very good". She further remarked that something like this might get her to like red wine. That's like Christian Schmucker telling you that your grape jam is delicious!
Thank you, Joe. You were absolutely right. I'm sorry I ever doubted you. My oak and raisins are hereby relagated to the secondary from this day forth! For those of you who have not tried this---or think that primary application is the best---give it up! You have to try it!
I'm done with my hijacking. You can have your thread back, now.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Dave,
Glad to hear it's working out well for you. I'm picking up my Carmenere and Malbec juice and grapes tomorrow and will be following Joe's advice with oak chips in secondary. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Jim
Glad to hear it's working out well for you. I'm picking up my Carmenere and Malbec juice and grapes tomorrow and will be following Joe's advice with oak chips in secondary. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Jim
