WHATTTTT???? Hows this even possible????

[Tnuscan]

Cheers!!
First off thanks for the answer, if it's possible there is one.
And I promise this is true.
I just stabilized a 6 gallon W.E. kit of Diablo Rojo, had lots of head space
so I added Co2 placed bung with (the airlock that has the small bell that
you drop into and fill with liquid) into the carboy. 3 different kits sitting
together. Later I went in to check on them and noticed the bell on one
had bottomed out . Thought this was odd so I was going to peck it to get
it to pop back up and when I did in the Blink of an eye it Back flushed
almost all the liquid into the carboy. What could cause such a fast and hard
vacuum that would make this possible? Got paranoid changed all to the to
s type. Gassed them up and a day latter all the liquid is on the side toward
the carboy.

Thanks!!

 

[DoctorCAD]

CO2 is what we try to take out of wine. Adding more seems counter to all I know...

 

[Bent-Brewer]

What's the temperature like where you're storing the wine? If it dropped even a couple degrees, it could start to suck some of the airlock fluid back in. I always get a little suckback when pulling the 3 piece airlocks just because you're still getting a seal with the bung as you pull it, increasing the internal volume. I'll typically stick a paper towel into the fluid to absorb some before pulling a 3 piece. As for that s-type... I have no clue. There really isn't much liquid volume, so it could have been temperature related... It's the only thing that makes sense... Unless your bung slowly slipped upwards after insertion. Those are the only things I know of- ideal gas law explains both.

As for topping off with CO2, it definitely makes sense. Flooding the head space will greatly reduce the amount of air as long as you can get it capped off quickly. Yes, you want the CO2 out of the wine, but you're not getting much absorption without positive pressure. Think of it like the "blanket" during fermentation. I do it with my beers all the time. Technically, you could do one step better by swapping out the CO2 for argon or nitrogen, but they need different tanks and regulators.

 

[sour_grapes]

Cheers!!
First off thanks for the answer, if it's possible there is one.

I suppose this is Henry's Law at work.

Let's assume (for convenience) there was no CO2 in your wine before you filled your head space with CO2. After you filled the headspace, some of the CO2 moved into solution. It would move into solution until the partial pressure of the CO2 in solution equaled 1 atmosphere. (For you purists, a little less than that due to the dilution with air as air gets sucked through the airlock.) Anyway, as the CO2 moves into solution, it must be replaced by something, so air moves through the airlock to replace it.

 

[Tnuscan]

CO2 is what we try to take out of wine. Adding more seems counter to all I know...

Why would the place I buy my wine kits from, tell me to use this if it was not good for wine? I was told the CO2 would lay on the wine and fill the head space. This set up cost me $170.00 dollars.

 

[Tnuscan]

What's the temperature like where you're storing the wine? If it dropped even a couple degrees, it could start to suck some of the airlock fluid back in. I always get a little suckback when pulling the 3 piece airlocks just because you're still getting a seal with the bung as you pull it, increasing the internal volume. I'll typically stick a paper towel into the fluid to absorb some before pulling a 3 piece. As for that s-type... I have no clue. There really isn't much liquid volume, so it could have been temperature related... It's the only thing that makes sense... Unless your bung slowly slipped upwards after insertion. Those are the only things I know of- ideal gas law explains both.

As for topping off with CO2, it definitely makes sense. Flooding the head space will greatly reduce the amount of air as long as you can get it capped off quickly. Yes, you want the CO2 out of the wine, but you're not getting much absorption without positive pressure. Think of it like the "blanket" during fermentation. I do it with my beers all the time. Technically, you could do one step better by swapping out the CO2 for argon or nitrogen, but they need different tanks and regulators.

Confused.
I was trying to keep the oxygen out. The temps have fluctuated here but the room they are in is set at 74deg. on thermostat. What would you suggest I do?
Thanks again!

Oops. I did unplug the heat for a good while, to move things around once.

 

[Tnuscan]

I suppose this is Henry's Law at work.

Let's assume (for convenience) there was no CO2 in your wine before you filled your head space with CO2. After you filled the headspace, some of the CO2 moved into solution. It would move into solution until the partial pressure of the CO2 in solution equaled 1 atmosphere. (For you purists, a little less than that due to the dilution with air as air gets sucked through the airlock.) Anyway, as the CO2 moves into solution, it must be replaced by something, so air moves through the airlock to replace it.

Not understanding this as I should. I did degas it very well, I didn't realize there was enough pressure to push it( into) the wine. Lots more than I realized to learn. Wish I knew this before throwing my money away.

Thanks!

 

[Putterrr]

the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers

http://vintable.com/

 

[Arne]

Was this a plastic carboy or glass? If plastic, did you squeeze it a little while placing the airlock? If so, it sucked back in when you released the carboy. Arne.

 

[Tnuscan]

Was this a plastic carboy or glass? If plastic, did you squeeze it a little while placing the airlock? If so, it sucked back in when you released the carboy. Arne.

Thanks! It was a glass carboy and has not been disturbed. The thing that puzzles me the most is the force that the suction had when I wiggled the little bell inside the air lock. It was a little to aggressive (like one of those new toilets that flush very fast), very aggressive... The pressure of this vacuum was to fast and aggressive to match surrounding pressures, (to my understandings of Physics and chemistry which are limited).
Thanks again!!

 

[JohnT]

Let me be simple about this... Head space is evil!

Adding CO2 does not give you a "blanket" to protect your wine. What happens is that your CO2 mixes with the O2 in that headspace.

A lot of folks think that, since you can "open ferment" wine (where a protective blanket of CO2 is formed), you can get the same protection by adding CO2 after fermentation to eliminate head space. This is not the same scenario.

During fermentation, the source of CO2 is constant and is sourced from the wine itself. A steady, positive pressure of CO2 prevents outside air from reaching your must, thus protecting it.

In what you are doing, CO2 is added in a relatively short burst. It is simply not the same thing. O2 is completely "pushed out". Some O2 will be simply mixed with your CO2.

Another problem is that carboys breathe. Due to barometric pressure and temperature changes, your headspace will expand and contract. This will draw air into the carboy, and expel the gas from the headspace out through your fermentation trap. In time, all of that CO2 in your headspace can be replaced with outside air.

For headspace, my best recommendation is to add a similar wine to your carboy to remove that headspace. Above all, this is the cheapest and easiest solution to a head space issue. Please use wine and not water!

Others add marbles to displace the wine and remove the headspace.

You could also try using the "Headspace Eliminator" that some are using (via vacuumpumpman). This keeps your wine under vacuum and I have heard that folks are happy with the results.

 

[Tnuscan]

Let me be simple about this... Head space is evil!

Adding CO2 does not give you a "blanket" to protect your wine. What happens is that your CO2 mixes with the O2 in that headspace.

A lot of folks think that, since you can "open ferment" wine (where a protective blanket of CO2 is formed), you can get the same protection by adding CO2 after fermentation to eliminate head space. This is not the same scenario.

During fermentation, the source of CO2 is constant and is sourced from the wine itself. A steady, positive pressure of CO2 prevents outside air from reaching your must, thus protecting it.

In what you are doing, CO2 is added in a relatively short burst. It is simply not the same thing. O2 is completely "pushed out". Some O2 will be simply mixed with your CO2.

Another problem is that carboys breathe. Due to barometric pressure and temperature changes, your headspace will expand and contract. This will draw air into the carboy, and expel the gas from the headspace out through your fermentation trap. In time, all of that CO2 in your headspace can be replaced with outside air.

For headspace, my best recommendation is to add a similar wine to your carboy to remove that headspace. Above all, this is the cheapest and easiest solution to a head space issue. Please use wine and not water!

Others add marbles to displace the wine and remove the headspace.

You could also try using the "Headspace Eliminator" that some are using (via vacuumpumpman). This keeps your wine under vacuum and I have heard that folks are happy with the results.

Very valuable information, and very much appreciated.

Will give them ("Headspace Eliminators") a try.

Many thanks!

 

[Bent-Brewer]

I suppose this is Henry's Law at work.

Yes. That. I'm gonna blame me being tired when I posted for forgetting that entirely, though I guess I shouldn't, because I deal with it routinely at work (blending two liquefied gasses at different head pressures). You will have some absorption back into the wine, but at 1ATM pressure, you shouldn't see any more than what people who let their wine degas on its own over 6+ months.

Eliminating headspace is still king. Flushing headspace won't evacuate all the free O2, but can help reduce it significantly if done correctly. I'd (carefully) add food-grade marbles or top it off with more wine. I have no experience with the vacuum saver, so can't say anything one way or the other. The logic behind it makes sense though.

the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers

http://vintable.com/

Somehow I've never seen those before (guess they're probably not super necessary with beer), but now it looks like I'm adding more equipment to my collection...

 

[Arne]

Somehow I've never seen those before (guess they're probably not super necessary with beer), but now it looks like I'm adding more equipment to my collection...[/QUOTE]

LOL, and it never ends. Arne.

 

[Tnuscan]

the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers

http://vintable.com/

Interesting!

I will give these a try.

Thanks!

 

[ibglowin]

Most LHBS sell 90% Beer making supplies and maybe 10% wine supplies and most of them don't know much about wine. Argon is the best gas for temporary back filling of headspace in wine. I would snag a couple of the headspace vacuum stoppers from Allinone for short term bulk aging of wines.

What type of setup did you purchase for $170?

Why would the place I buy my wine kits from, tell me to use this if it was not good for wine? I was told the CO2 would lay on the wine and fill the head space. This set up cost me $170.00 dollars.

 

[JimmyT]

the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers

http://vintable.com/

I use these every chance I get. If my jug carboy or bottle will accept it, it goes in!
I'm a big fan of racking down to smaller carboys/jugs/bottle combos instead of topping up.

 

[Tnuscan]

Most LHBS sell 90% Beer making supplies and maybe 10% wine supplies and most of them don't know much about wine. Argon is the best gas for temporary back filling of headspace in wine. I would snag a couple of the headspace vacuum stoppers from Allinone for short term bulk aging of wines.

What type of setup did you purchase for $170?

Thanks for the info! Your correct on the percentages of the "LHBS".

I purchased a CO2 tank (filled).

Regulator and hose With clamp.

A simple set up, maybe they didn't know????

I have ordered the vacuum stoppers (which I didn't know of until recently). I have had the Allinone Wine Pump for years, (which I love, and hope everyone gets to know the joy, and ease it brings to wine making). It was a great Investment (truth is truth, simple as that).

Thanks for the info!

 

[Tnuscan]

I use these every chance I get. If my jug carboy or bottle will accept it, it goes in!
I'm a big fan of racking down to smaller carboys/jugs/bottle combos instead of topping up.

Thanks!

Your correct! I will match 5 gallon carboys to my 6 gallon carboys. As for now I have more 6's, I've ordered some of the "Headspace Eliminators" and I am excited about trying them. If they're as Awesome as the Allinone is, my problems are solved!

I'm learning, a lot from this forum.

Thanks again!!

 

[Tnuscan]

I use these every chance I get. If my jug carboy or bottle will accept it, it goes in!
I'm a big fan of racking down to smaller carboys/jugs/bottle combos instead of topping up.

So sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I am getting some of these to try also. I like different ideas and backups.

Very interested in trying these out.

Thanks again!!