SURVEY: How do you prefer to use Multiple Yeast Strains in a Batch?

[ithink2020]

I've been researching how to use multiple yeast strains in a single batch. So far I've seen the mixed fermentation method, dividing the batches into two or more smaller batches then blending after they are dry, and staggering the additions (add the primary yeast 1st, then adding the second strain a little later). I see there are reasons to do each method and this is not what "should be done" question. However, I want to see what everyone ends up doing normally.

Thanks!

 

[NorCal]

The only way I have reasonable confidence that I have the resulting wine was from two yeast is to ferment separately.

 

[BernardSmith]

I agree. Some yeasts are clearly killer strains and do not play well with other yeast. But some yeast prefer cooler temperatures while others prefer warmer. Some yeasts demand a lot of nutrients and others eat like birds. So it makes better sense to me to blend the wines rather than the yeasts. But there are occasions when blending yeasts DOES make good sense although this tends (for me) to be more often with brewing beer than making wine and with beer it's because I am adding brett and the like and so the blending is done sequentially rather than at the one time ...

 

[stickman]

With wine from grapes, there is almost always more than one strain present, even when you are adding so2 followed by a specific cultured yeast. Many factors are involved, but Kloeckera or some other cold tolerant yeast usually start the fermentation, and then Saccharomyces takes over at some point as the temperature rises.

 

[mainshipfred]

Scott Labs make a multi strain yeast, I believe it is the Alchemy line. My understanding is the yeasts they combine have different lag times or other characteristics that allow them to work in harmony but I'm sure there was a lot of research done to determine which and how much of the yeasts to combine. Personally I use 3-4 different yeasts in different batches and wait until they are finished and blend. I only wish I had the space or vessels to allow them to age separately.

 

[cmason1957]

Over on Facebook back a few months ago, Daniel Pambianci had this to say about using two yeasts in the same ferment: (basically, it probably doesn't fo what anyone thinks it might do)

INOCULATION WITH TWO YEAST STRAINS

==================================

There was a recent post asking the question as to why a wine kit had two packets of different yeasts; specifically, RC-212 and EC-1118, in the said post.

I’d like to address this as a separate commentary for everyone’s benefit.

This is a case where the sum of the parts is NOT greater than the whole, and in fact, it might likely be less. I had addressed this question with yeast manufacturers when I first wrote my book. One said, “I don’t understand this fascination with inoculating with different yeasts; it’s good for our business, I guess, but I don’t understand it.” The several manufacturers I have consulted with did NOT support such co-inoculation back then and they do not support it now. Look through Lallemand’s or Laffort’s catalogs, or Scott Labs’ Fermentation Handbook, and you will not see anything about inoculating with different strains. The only exception is the sequential inoculation with a non-Saccharomyces yeast followed by a Saccharomyces yeast, but that’s a different topic.

When you inoculate with different Saccharomyces strains, inevitably there will be competition for nutrients, depriving the weaker strain into growing and fermenting as it should. Neither strain really performs as it was intended to, and in fact, one strain might be so dominant that the weaker strain never has a chance to build up its biomass, which means it may never get involved in metabolizing substrates (sugars, amino acids, etc.). And the results could be very different with the same variety but with grapes from different areas, i.e., juice chemistry could alter yeast metabolism.

The reason why EC-1118 is used in kits is to make fermentation foolproof given that kits are often used by novice hobbyists. It’s there as an insurance. If you know what you are doing and are controlling all aspects of fermentation, then just use, as in the example above, the RC-212. You will certainly end up with a better wine. If co-inoculated, RC-212 may not have a chance to metabolize properly and produce those desired aromas and flavors.

Lallemand, recognizing the need for stronger fermentation dynamics with its popular BM45 strain, developed the BM4X4 strain, which is a strain of BM45 and a stronger fermenter (I don’t know which one). But this was researched and tested extensively, and developed into a single product that would have reliable and reproducible properties. It is not the same as inoculating with the BM45 and then some other stronger strain.

The beer folks might inoculate with different strains, but I would not assume that which works in beer works in wine.

 

[hounddawg]

um, to much thinking and not enough drinking, i reckon you can call it tweeting, but tradisional wines are documented going back thousands of years, country wines i figure go back much longer then believed, hence honey wines, and country wines go back many eons in the Americas, i know i am lack luster, and limited, but after using as many yeasts as i could get over the years, i have come to believe that i only need use 2 types, EC-1118 & K1V-1116
Dawg

 

[Boatboy24]

Over on Facebook back a few months ago, Daniel Pambianci had this to say about using two yeasts in the same ferment: (basically, it probably doesn't fo what anyone thinks it might do)

It sounds like he's talking about using different yeasts in the same batch, which is one of the selection options in the survey. As the results indicate so far, it seems most people separate the batches, combining AFTER fermentation is complete. I would agree that at least in my own mind's logic, co-inoculating or sequentially inoculating in the same 'batch' is probably a waste of time.

 

[vineyarddog]

Over on Facebook back a few months ago, Daniel Pambianci had this to say about using two yeasts in the same ferment: (basically, it probably doesn't fo what anyone thinks it might do)

As a newbie I was super excited when I opened my newest kit and it had two different yeast packets.. I thought it was going to be AWESOME. Then, thanks to @Johnd , I learned that in reality the EC-1118 was just going to starve the RC-212 and not really provide any benefit. I went back to order the same kit to make again just using the RC-212 to see the difference but it was already sold out.

I love all of the things that you can learn on this forum!

 

[cmason1957]

As a newbie I was super excited when I opened my newest kit and it had two different yeast packets.. I thought it was going to be AWESOME. Then, thanks to @Johnd , I learned that in reality the EC-1118 was just going to starve the RC-212 and not really provide any benefit. I went back to order the same kit to make again just using the RC-212 to see the difference but it was already sold out.

I love all of the things that you can learn on this forum!

I think, based on what I posted, that some yeast is going to end up the dominant, which one is indeterminate. But there is no good reason to think that you will get the goodness of (in this case) RC-212. I don't understand why kit manufacturers have gone down this path. I do know that when I get two yeasts and one of them is EC-1118, it goes into the refrigerator to be used on a skeeter pee or dragon's blood type of wine and I only pitch the other yeast.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Microbiology class would teach that organisms will reproduce and be dominant in waves, ie as a nutritional requirement is consumed (ex oxygen or sugar or alcohol tolerance) a new organism (species) with a slightly different metabolism takes over the dominant role.

I think, based on what I posted, that some yeast is going to end up the dominant, which one is indeterminate. But there is no good reason to think that you will get the goodness of (in this case) RC-212. I don't understand why kit manufacturers have gone down this path. I do know that when I get two yeasts and one of them is EC-1118, it goes into the refrigerator to be used on a skeeter pee or dragon's blood type of wine and I only pitch the other yeast.

 

[tttaff]

Over on Facebook back a few months ago, Daniel Pambianci had this to say about using two yeasts in the same ferment: (basically, it probably doesn't fo what anyone thinks it might do)

I am the person who authored the post on Facebook that Daniel Pambianci then replied to. My original question was about the new WinExpert French-style Bordeaux kit that recently came out. I purchased this kit and was surprised to see that it came with two packets of yeast: EC-1118 and RC-212. I had never seen this in a wine kit before. I emailed WinExpert about this, and this was their response:

"In our internal tastings we bench trial different yeasts and a couple of those are combinations. EC1118 is generally included in kits to ensure full fermentation within our timeline as it is a workhorse yeast. Other yeasts like RC212 or K1V are used for aromatics. We found certain wines benefited from a second yeast. We also work within an instructional timeline and different finished alcohol for our kits. Some wineries might use two different yeasts and blend after fermentation. This does not work with kits. There are differences between fresh grape winemaking and kit winemaking. Hard evidence is in the bench trials for us. If the winemaker feels the flavors and aromatics are on target then that is the one used."

 

[cmason1957]

yes, I remember that, but I feel that is Corporate BS. There is no reason to believe that the RC212 ends up doing much of anything, since EC1118 is widly know to out compete almost all other yeasts, but who knows some offshoot yeast combination of the two might actually be what does the fermentation. There really is no way to know. I'll stick with one strain.

 

[BernardSmith]

But corporate speech or not, if you pitched the RC 212 for the aromas and flavors it might highlight or produce and the yeast was ambling along and you were impatient and wanted to rack the bloody thing into a carboy then you could pitch the EC1118 to bring the whole shebang home.

 

[cmason1957]

But corporate speech or not, if you pitched the RC 212 for the aromas and flavors it might highlight or produce and the yeast was ambling along and you were impatient and wanted to rack the bloody thing into a carboy then you could pitch the EC1118 to bring the whole shebang home.

If you are an impatient person, this might not be the best hobby for you. I suppose that might be true, but I think I'll still just stick with the one yeast. Other than doing a ferment at 50F, it hasn't taken over a week (well, maybe 8 days once) for anything I have fermented.

 

[balatonwine]

I don't.

Either one strain, or let it go wild (no idea how many types of yeast there in).

 

[Chuck E]

I've used BM4x4 and White Labs 611. Both of these are multi-strain yeasts blended by the yeast manufacturer. I had good results with both of these.
I have also pitched EC1118 to finish a stuck fermentation, so I guess that would be a sequential pitch.

 

[joeswine]

ok here's my two cents,. This isn't the first time this has happened with kits and it worked then they stopped ????
and yes some yeast don't play well with others but some do and finding that combination of yeasts can produce a more flavorful wine with a higher alcohol content for the home wine maker The outcome is in the finished product, their are as many different ways to make wine as there are winemakers.

FOR THE SCEPTICS HAVE YOU TRIED IT YET??

 

[joeswine]

This is the kit

 

[joeswine]

additional stages of assembly