please help, do I need to cement my end posts? general anchor/trellis post question.

[grapeman]

I recommend you not run the wire through the posts, but use large fencing staples instead. If run through the post, it can be a problem if a post breaks off and needs replacing- how to get the wire out of the post. The staples just make it easier.

 

[TimTheWiner]

Thanks B&W for the idea on setting them at an angle. And that pic and details of the next setup look great as well. I may just try both methods and see which I prefer. I really hope I can find done tool rental as I really don't want to be spending a fee hundred more dollars on a wire puller, gripper tool or crimp tool, or a spinning jenny.

 

[UBB]

FWIW, here is what my end posts look like. Hard to tell but they are at an angle. Dug the holes using an old ice auger:: and I did use QuikCrete in the holes as well. In the ground since 09 and no problems thus far.

 

[flyfishun]

In just going to say. My vineyard is 8yrs old. My wires for my middle posts are through the the post. A 3/8 wood bit works great and I have not had any post problems. I am in western WA in a very wet area. I used 6in pressure treated posts and have had no problems. Through the post wires are much easier to manage from my point of view are the way to go. Do not concrete the end posts but use the tension posts on the end to stop the posts from leaning. Just my opinion.

 

[grapeman]

I knew somebody would say they have had the wires through the posts with no problems. I think most people have either done it or thought about it. The problem isn't with the hole making the post rot, it is how do you replace the post with the wire running through it. I did the same thing many years ago and have had to replace a couple posts- it isn't the easiest thing to do. If you have three wires you have three chunks of post to cut out and split away from the wire. With fencing staples, just pull the staple and replace the post.

The nice thing about a vineyard and making wine is there are as many ways of doing things as there are wine makers and grape growers.

See below for a picture of square posts with wires running through them - what a pain to replace those posts as they rot off.

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

- what a pain to replace those posts as they rot off.

Another reason not to concrete them in.

 

[OilnH2O]

Well, I did mine like B&W and similar to "Option 2" - the angles were more like 30* - and over time, the have crept upright. That's only 50-feet long, in rocky soil, with clay and cobbles and lots of tamping. (See "Missoula Vineyard" post #36 http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/missoula-vinyard-19860/index4.html) But, with the wire-droop due to the weight of cordons and hanging fruit, I've tightened the wires with the turnbuckles and slowly... s-l-o-w-l-y... over 4-5 years they - the posts - are now upright!

I'm wondering about re-digging the holes back to where they were and then putting in some sort of earth anchor or bracing. So keep us... uh, 'posted!'

 

[TimTheWiner]

That last post makes me want to put them in about 30 deg just for that reason, so if they pull inwards they'll end up vertical. Just seems easier to pack rocks around a vertical post rather than angled. If I am not mistaken, for VSP won't I need 7 wires. 1 at the bottom them three pairs (1 on each side at 3 heights)?. Also if this is the case do I need a wire strainer for EVERY single wire? If so, even at $2.99 each that's $165 just in wire strainers.

 

[TimTheWiner]

And one more thing for OilnH20, did you have an earth anchor pulling them the opposite direction or any kind of tie down? Probably has something to do with them straightening back up?

 

[saddlebronze]

To avoid the need for wire tensioners, I use a wire stretcher from Tractor supply. A simple rig that tensions the runs and then wrap them around the end post and release. The tool is reusable.

 

[TimTheWiner]

To avoid the need for wire tensioners, I use a wire stretcher from Tractor supply. A simple rig that tensions the runs and then wrap them around the end post and release. The tool is reusable.

Any pic?

 

[saddlebronze]

Tractor supply item number 360031299 SpeeCo fence stretcher. Real good for trellis wires and end post anchor lines. Picture on the website.

 

[TimTheWiner]

Looks good, thanks for the part #. So this Sat all 45 holes are getting dug with the auger. All mid posts will be set like Option 1. I think I will try to put the end posts at about 30 deg angle like option 2 (and earth anchor as well) still not sure exactly how to pack the holes. Rocks in the bottom and dirt on top, or dirt only. My dad mentioned possibly digging (by shovel) an angle about 30 def for the post to lean against. Not sure if this would be better, but sure a lot of extra work. Will post pic example below.

On a side note, if I am doing mostly VSP, and have 7 wires per row (bottom cordon and 3 pairs up), does EACH wire need a wire strainer/tensioning device? That's a Huge cost I didn't plan on.

 

[TimTheWiner]

 

[TimTheWiner]

Also interested to know as far as the mid/line posts go, how wide to make the hole in comparison to the post, and if I should place it in the center and pack stones all the way around, or push to one side of the hole and then pack.

 

[OilnH2O]

And one more thing for OilnH20, did you have an earth anchor pulling them the opposite direction or any kind of tie down? Probably has something to do with them straightening back up?

Shock,
I guess I should have stated it outright - I was relating the experience of rows with angled end posts, but without any earth anchor or bracing. I chose to use what little room I have to get in a couple extra vines, rather than have even shorter rows.

In your first post, you had a question of "do I need the end post angled away..." because of the short run of the row - 60 feet I think you said. My rows are at 42-44 feet long. My holes were hand-dug with a post hole digger - there is no room for equipment in my back-yard because it IS a back-yard, and it's on a slope (and I'd have had to tear down a section of fence at the side of the house to get equipment in anyway, and didn't want to do that).

So I angled the posts, holes were 30 inches +/- deep, and then posts angled across the vertical hole, as you have illustrated as Option 2 above (but more with a chamferred top edge rather than the hole dug on an angle all the way to the bottom). Lots of tamping and placement of rocks and cobbles to prevent the post from moving to the vertical, BUT no earth anchor or bracing. Over time (6 years) the posts were pulled to the vertical. AND, I don't think the fact that the wire is tensioned using a turnbuckle or a tensioner tool makes any difference. It is the tensioned wire that is pulling the post from the angle to an upright position. Without tensioning the wire, you will get a lot of droop from the canes and fruit. And, I think if you started at the vertical, it will end up pulling the posts inward.

Thus, my final sentence in my first post saying I am probably going to have to re-do the end posts (again by hand!) but will put in some sort of earth anchor or brace (because, otherwise, they will continue to be pulled together). But, having said that, the bracing will not be done the proper way simply because I don't have the room.

I hope that makes more sense!

 

[grapeman]

Using an auger with stones there you will have a hard time lining them up perfectly. Therefore you should center the first post and fill around it tamping with a 2x4 on end. Then the next post line that up with the first post and the end post and place where it makes the straightest row. Keep going from there.

 

[TimTheWiner]

Using an auger with stones there you will have a hard time lining them up perfectly. Therefore you should center the first post and fill around it tamping with a 2x4 on end. Then the next post line that up with the first post and the end post and place where it makes the straightest row. Keep going from there.

Straight rows won't be an issue, there are no stones larger than the palm of a hand because all of the boulders were removed in the fall (each row dug with backhoe 2' deep and 3' wide, then back filled by hand. 250 hrs of work.

To Oil, that's go info. I will however be using wire tensioners (strainers or grapples) on trellis wires as well as end post to earth anchor in the ground.

 

[TimTheWiner]

I had a friend do a little math for me (10 years since I've used trig), and if I went with option 2 but then measured out 1' 1.75" away from it and dug down to the bottom of the hole with a shovel on that same side, then I should end up with an approx 30° angle that I could then lay the post on. Does this seem like a good idea, or seem like too much extra work vs just "leaning" it to the side? If I did try to shovel out at an angle, at least there would be no air pocket under it or awkward space to fill, the cedar would lay flat on the angle, then just fill (end up looking kind of like Option 3). Starting this TOMORROW! And thanks for ALL your help, you guys are great and no negativity like automotive forums, etc.

 

[HillPeople]

Shockwave,
There is virtually no difference between vertical end posts or end posts set at 30 degrees. The key is an earth anchor that is impossible to pull out. We used Fenox stoney earth anchors available here:
http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/Stony-Ground-Anchors-Fenox-p10.htm
With angled end posts there is a slight advantage in the end post "digging in its heels" so to speak, but that is minimal in comparison to the resistance provided by properly installed and tensioned anchors. We set the end posts vertical and have turnbuckles on the anchor cable. Once trued to plumb they absolutely will will not move even a fraction of an inch once the trellis wires are tensioned. Nothing will move unless it breaks- it's just basic physics.
I have an idea that angled end posts are a carry over from French and Italian vineyards where the upland soils were loose, dry, sandy and stoney. There the angle may have aided a little more with less reliance on rock solid anchors.
One of the disadvantages of angled end posts is that they are usually 2' longer than the line posts due to the drop in height. I think it's a no brainer to use all 8' posts- 4-6" diameter for line posts and 6-8" for end posts. Just my 2 cents. I'm sure there would be disagreement.