please help, do I need to cement my end posts? general anchor/trellis post question.

[TimTheWiner]

So my 120 vines are getting shipping on April 15. I live in CT and hoping the end of April will be a good time to plant. Anyhow. I REALLY want to get my trellising and deer fencing up asap. I know it can wait until later in the year, but expecting our first baby in August, so I want as much as possible done now. My main question is that a lot of websites and university studies I have seen show very sturdy and somewhat complex systems for trellis end posts and bracing, however my rows are ONLY 60' long (12 vines each row). Most area vineyards with much longer rows seem to have more basic setups. My question is do I need the end post angled away from the row (at 45 ° for instance), or is vertical ok. I am using 6"-8" cedar end posts and 4"-6" midposts every 20'. I was planning on just digging about a 10"-12" hole about 2' deep and dropping in the post then surrounding with dry quikrete, and pouring in the required water. Should 1 bag be enough or do I need more? Do I even need to concrete, or are rocks/soil enough (I don't think so). I can also get 30" long earth anchors for about $5 each. I am into this project for almost $2,000 and really can't spend any more. The guy at home depot was saying I need carboard tubes to pour the concrete into the holes (another $4 each) and would need at least 2-3 bags per hole. Just getting very expensive. Any ideas/suggestions? Pics welcome. Thank you!!!

 

[grapeman]

Forget the concrete if only using one bag for a couple reasons. First it will not be enough to adequately surround the post to keep it from moving. Secondly being in CT you will be subject to frost action which will cause the post to be heaved out of the ground after a few years. The concrete lets the frost get under the post and as it freezes it pushes the post up a couple inches or so.

60 feet is pretty short and you can get by with just the bigger post on the end, set at a slight angle to allow for a bit of wire sag- as the wire sags a bit it will pull the posts upright. I know you have plenty of stones there so dig the holes a bit bigger and pack the hole with small stones to keep it tight. The stones let the water work through so they don't heave from the frost.

I know it gets expensive, but you spent most of the money on prepping the site. You don't have a lot more to spend now, so do what you need to for the good of the vineyard. Certainly forget the cardboard tubes- the guy is thinking about normal PT posts setting on top of a concrete footing like you would do for a deck.

 

[HillPeople]

I agree with Grapeman- forget concrete. In small vineyards with short rows like yours, vertical end posts with a wire or cable tensioning wire to an earth anchor will work fine. I used turnbuckles on the tensioning wire and though somewhat unconventional it works very well.
I would encourage you to hold off on the trellis work until the soil is prepped, planting holes dug and the vines put in. It will make things so much easier if you're not trying to do all that work with trellis in the way.
Attached a picture of the start of our little vineyard in mid-May 2012- 105 vines, so roughly what you are putting in. It would have been difficult with the trellis in the way.

 

[bigdrums2]

Ditto. You could do vertical though and brace it with a 2x4.

 

[GreginND]

There's a point where I see a mix of opinions - plant the vines first or put in your trellis posts first? I was thinking it would be better to first put in the posts (not the wires). This way you minimize the risk of the equipment running over your new vines.

So -- Put in posts -- plant the vines -- put in wires.

Thoughts?

 

[bigdrums2]

That's what I did.

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

I'm in my 4th year and just setting posts now
I set "t" bars at the ends and some in the mid section and ran just a top wire to keep the bamboo standing up.
If weather is with me I'll get the rest of the posts in soon.
I'm doing like Grapeman said, just lean them back and pack tight. My rows are about 100' long.

 

[TimTheWiner]

Ok, sounds like great information. Maybe I'll just use concrete for the end posts of the outside deer fence and that's it. I can get 30" long 5" helix earth anchors for $5 each so a much more cost effective option. I like the idea of the slight angle, just not sure how I'll pack rocks under the angled part of the cedar that's in the hole (not like packing around a vertical post) and of course I have hundreds of rocks that were removed from the prepping last call. And I don't want to install the wires yet, but I mainly want to get all end and mid posts set in the ground. I put in a chain link fence last year, but the posts were a LOT smaller and I premixed the concrete, too much work. Thanks a LOT guys. I'll have updated pics in my thread over the next month or 6!

 

[flyfishun]

I agree with grapeman also. My rows are about 70 to 80 feet and I have anchor braces on the ends. I used 3ft metal posts and drove them all the way in then did the standard wire twist from the ground to about 3/4 up my end post. For my trellis wire I also used a ratcheting device on the ends so I could adjust my wires in the future. I found them at the farm and ranch store. I too am in sand and rock so the anchors were a bit hard to do but really make a difference.

 

[TimTheWiner]

OK, just want to be 100% of how I should set me end posts which needs to get done within the next 2 weeks. I have posted a pic below of what I see as the 3 options all of which use earth anchors as well. Option 1 would seem the quickest and easiest. They are 60' rows with 2 mid posts (20' apart). The pic is concerning the beefy end posts. All of the mid posts will be done like Fig 1 with NO augers.

 

[flyfishun]

I used option one with a 6 in x 8ft post with the anchor. If I had to do it again I would do the same thing

 

[UBB]

There's a point where I see a mix of opinions - plant the vines first or put in your trellis posts first? I was thinking it would be better to first put in the posts (not the wires). This way you minimize the risk of the equipment running over your new vines.

So -- Put in posts -- plant the vines -- put in wires.

Thoughts?

This is my plan for my new vines this spring. I broke the ground and set the end posts last fall. More soil prep and line posts go in before the vines ship. Right or wrong that's the plan.

 

[TimTheWiner]

I think I like that plan the most as well. Trellis post/deer fence in, then plant vines, then install trellis wires. I DO more and more like Option 1. I just hope it will be strong enough. Btw, UBB, what kind of soil work do you have to do now? I did all my soil amendments and tilled in the fall. Is there anything I need to do prior to digging the plant holes/tilling? Should I shovel dig the vines holes or use the auger?

 

[UBB]

I think I like that plan the most as well. Trellis post/deer fence in, then plant vines, then install trellis wires. I DO more and more like Option 1. I just hope it will be strong enough. Btw, UBB, what kind of soil work do you have to do now? I did all my soil amendments and tilled in the fall. Is there anything I need to do prior to digging the plant holes/tilling? Should I shovel dig the vines holes or use the auger?

It was sod when I tilled it up in the fall. I'll till it up again and auger in the line post holes is all.

 

[TimTheWiner]

Ok great, just wanted to make sure I wasn't forgetting anything.

 

[Abrnth3]

I am just thinking if you have frost heave as we do here in Central Illinois, you may want to go a little deeper then 24". If you can get below the frost line your post most likely will not get pushed up from frost. I believe the frost line is close to 24" most years. We generally put our post in 30" just for added security. No crete just a good tamping of the soil as we back fill holes. Wants its settled a few years it's like concrete. Good luck.

 

[TimTheWiner]

I not sure about frost heave. I know I put in about 8 chain link fence posts 2' with 1 bag of concrete each, and they are quite sturdy after 3 years. I think a vertical post and hole will be more familiar to me. I just see so many people with angled end pots, by maybe they are larger rows. Can anyone possible guide me to more info on the kind of tools necessary for pulling/looping the wire and crimping or grip poles. I really hope I am not going to need to BUY some specialty tools that'll never get used again.

And all the cedar posts we're bought last year, and most close to 8' so not sure i could go down 30" especially if I ended up going at an angle.

 

[ThePlantGuy978]

I have often wondered and tried to use a hand held post hole digger to create a hole at a 45 deg. angle. I have never been successful.
Any hints??

Hans

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

I have often wondered and tried to use a hand held post hole digger to create a hole at a 45 deg. angle. I have never been successful.
Any hints??

Hans

dig it a bit bigger and a little extra on one side where you want it to lean. I have set mine at about 30* with this method, more like #2 above. when you do it like that set the post in on the vine side and put a few hand fulls of dirt/rocks in then lean away from the vines and fill. If they start to straighten up, I'll bracing will be used.
I kept away from concrete because if at some time in the future I need to replace a cedar post I only need to remove the post and re dig, not bring in a back hoe to remove a bunch of concrete too.

 

[HillPeople]

Shockwave, attached is a picture showing the endpost system I used. They are 6-8" pressure treated yellow pine, 8' long, 2' in the ground. They are tensioned using 3/16" cable and turnbuckles, anchored with stoney earth anchors. The trellis wire is through-post, running through Gripples. It's easy and works very well. My rows are 120' long.