Need a primer on acids and tannin

[Jal5]

so far i have not done anything with adjusting acid or tannin in my wines. Can someone suggest a good reference to read on this? Something not too overwhelming-
Like acid additions for dummies. LOL

THX
Joe

 

[cmason1957]

This is my go to place to look for information, you will probably have to read several of them to find what you are looking for. The red/white guides have some information, understanding PH, TA Testing, and finally (perhaps the most important) Guide to Bench Trials. There probably isn't a for dummies guide, additions to wines are where the "art" part comes in. One word of warning, decide how much you think you want to add, add half of that, see what happens, then decide again, add half of that. Repeat.

https://morewinemaking.com/content/winemanuals

 

[Johnd]

so far i have not done anything with adjusting acid or tannin in my wines. Can someone suggest a good reference to read on this? Something not too overwhelming-
Like acid additions for dummies. LOL

THX
Joe

Joe:

Acid adjustments, in theory, are pretty simple, adjusting your acid up or down to achieve proper balance. In practice, it becomes a bit more challenging, considering both pH and TA in your must, making changes prefermentation, and then tweaking the resultant wine through bench trials once the wine has settled down after AF / MLF. There are a lot of sources available to guide you along the way, one of the easier to understand, and very practical ones, are produce by MoreWine. I've provided a link to the MoreWine manual on red winemaking, if you go to their site and scroll down the bottom and look at the myriad of manuals they offer, you can do all of the reading, researching, and planning that you need to put yourself in a position to be successful.

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wredw.pdf

 

[Johnd]

This is my go to place to look for information, you will probably have to read several of them to find what you are looking for. The red/white guides have some information, understanding PH, TA Testing, and finally (perhaps the most important) Guide to Bench Trials. There probably isn't a for dummies guide, additions to wines are where the "art" part comes in. One word of warning, decide how much you think you want to add, add half of that, see what happens, then decide again, add half of that. Repeat.

https://morewinemaking.com/content/winemanuals

Looks like you were a little quicker on the "Reply" button..............though the info seems to be pretty much on the same track!!!

 

[ceeaton]

Looks like you were a little quicker on the "Reply" button..............though the info seems to be pretty much on the same track!!!

Your gettin' older, those reflexes slow down...I feel your pain.

I'll double up on @cmason1957's use half of what you think you need to use. It usually ends up working out the 1/2 amount is what you need to use. That practice has saved me a lot of issues so far with adjusting my wine. And I agree with @Johnd that you should attempt to make adjustments before fermentation if you can, but there is always the option to fine tune your adjustments after things have settled down after primary and secondary fermentation (if you choose to do both) through bench trials. There are a lot of things going on that can buffer the acids you add at any stage in wine making, way to complex for my feeble mind to fully comprehend.

 

[cmason1957]

Looks like you were a little quicker on the "Reply" button..............though the info seems to be pretty much on the same track!!!

Yep, I type for a living so I type fast. I read over both and chuckled that we both pointed at the same place and suggested almost the exact same thing. It amazed me how often on this site I read someone's answer to a question and think, help same thing I would have suggested.

 

[Jal5]

Thanks for the link. I have some reading to do now. Joe

 

[NorCal]

Two acid observations that I’ve been amazed by:

1. The buffering capability and the difference in buffering capability of wine preferment (is that two amazements?). I deal with high pH grapes in my neck of the woods. I regularly add a pound of tartaric per bin (nets 65-75 gallons) to my ferments. This generally moves the needle around .1, maybe .15 pH. I shoot for 3.6 pH. I’ve measured the must the next day and it was right back to where I started and others accepted the change in pH with open arms.

2. You can throw a lot of acid at wine preferment, but not post ferment. Take the pound (454 grams) of acid into that 70 gallons (265 liters) of wine, you get 1.7 grams per liter. I’ve had finished wine that I considered “flabby” with pH of 4.1, that became undrinkably sour after adding .3 grams per liter. Acid adjustments are almost like 10X more influential in taste post ferment than preferment in my experience. This is why I throw away the pH and TA meters post ferment and if I do any adjustments post ferment, it is to taste only; kind of like adding salt to a nice steak.

 

[Ajmassa]

Two acid observations that I’ve been amazed by:

1. The buffering capability and the difference in buffering capability of wine preferment (is that two amazements?). I deal with high pH grapes in my neck of the woods. I regularly add a pound of tartaric per bin (nets 65-75 gallons) to my ferments. This generally moves the needle around .1, maybe .15 pH. I shoot for 3.6 pH. I’ve measured the must the next day and it was right back to where I started and others accepted the change in pH with open arms.

2. You can throw a lot of acid at wine preferment, but not post ferment. Take the pound (454 grams) of acid into that 70 gallons (265 liters) of wine, you get 1.7 grams per liter. I’ve had finished wine that I considered “flabby” with pH of 4.1, that became undrinkably sour after adding .3 grams per liter. Acid adjustments are almost like 10X more influential in taste post ferment than preferment in my experience. This is why I throw away the pH and TA meters post ferment and if I do any adjustments post ferment, it is to taste only; kind of like adding salt to a nice steak.
View attachment 52982

Well said. Unfortunately I’ve handled dealing with High ph musts no different than my wife while PMSing—by first learning what NOT to do. (But no better way to commit to memory!)

My personal “do nots”
Do not NOT adjust preferment assuming you can just adjust later
Do not adjust post AF/MLF down to 3.6 assuming taste will just “fall into place” in time.
Do not fear high TA when making preferment adjustments and add too little.
Do not underestimate how much so2 is required/or how quick it becomes bound in high ph wine
Do not expect Acid to obey logic/theory when shifting via MLF (or anything really).

Looking forward to the fall to finally show those high pH grapes who’s boss! Counting the days

 

[Rice_Guy]

Thoughts on acid:
1) pH in wine is a preservative. I target 3.3 to 3.4 pH with white grape and fruit ie acidic enough to give reasonable activity with sulphite. Reds are more resistant to oxidation and naturally seem to fall at pH 3.5. Much of the preservative effect is lost if the must isn't run at a low enough pH.
In lab testing we routinely blend a material in 50% distilled water, ie it is transparent for pH. Practically speaking a 50% tap water dilution in most of the country might change 0.1 pH unit so I ignore its effect.
2) TA is related to depth of flavor, ie a Minnesota grape is likely to score better on aftertaste than a California grape. We pull TA out (malolactic ferment) to make the flavor smoother. In fruit wines I have played with buffer systems to add depth of flavor (like potassium citrate used in a drink mix). High TA is related to a defect in Minnesota grapes where tartaric crystals drop out with time.
Some fruits as cranberry have a high acid content and ferment better if they are diluted with water. Distilled water is assumed to be transparent when added to a TA test.
3) Acid is a flavoring agent which is described as fresh on flavor wheels. The best currant wine I have tried was pH 2.8 with high sugar to compensate, , however the acid flavor was strong enough that it was hard to finish a glass. The term which is tossed out is to "balance" acid with sweetness for consumer preference.

Thoughts on Tannin:
1) Tannin can be a flavoring agent contributing bitter flavor notes and a wine which will score higher on aftertaste. Again "balance" flavors, too much bitter kills a wine. There are different types of tannin, the kind suppliers call "soft" has less flavor impact.
2) Tannin is present in most reds (grape skins). It will complex with astringent flavor compounds and smooth out the flavor of reds. Practically speaking we assume no tannin in whites and fruit wine.
3) Tannin is used as a complexing agent to help clarify some wines.

 

[sdelli]

Two acid observations that I’ve been amazed by:

1. The buffering capability and the difference in buffering capability of wine preferment (is that two amazements?). I deal with high pH grapes in my neck of the woods. I regularly add a pound of tartaric per bin (nets 65-75 gallons) to my ferments. This generally moves the needle around .1, maybe .15 pH. I shoot for 3.6 pH. I’ve measured the must the next day and it was right back to where I started and others accepted the change in pH with open arms.

2. You can throw a lot of acid at wine preferment, but not post ferment. Take the pound (454 grams) of acid into that 70 gallons (265 liters) of wine, you get 1.7 grams per liter. I’ve had finished wine that I considered “flabby” with pH of 4.1, that became undrinkably sour after adding .3 grams per liter. Acid adjustments are almost like 10X more influential in taste post ferment than preferment in my experience. This is why I throw away the pH and TA meters post ferment and if I do any adjustments post ferment, it is to taste only; kind of like adding salt to a nice steak.
View attachment 52982

I totally agree that pre ferment is the absolute best time to make your adjustments. But disagree about throwing all the meters away post ferment. First, Need to make sure the so2 levels are correct. That is ph and so2 meters. Lastly, I have had great success moving ph down post ferment even though I don’t prefer it. I have found my sweat spot is 20 grams tartaric acid per 5 gal carboy on post additions. Then test in a few weeks and repeat if needed. But this is when I am fighting 3.80 or higher.

 

[NorCal]

I totally agree that pre ferment is the absolute best time to make your adjustments. But disagree about throwing all the meters away post ferment. First, Need to make sure the so2 levels are correct. That is ph and so2 meters. Lastly, I have had great success moving ph down post ferment even though I don’t prefer it. I have found my sweat spot is 20 grams tartaric acid per 5 gal carboy on post additions. Then test in a few weeks and repeat if needed. But this is when I am fighting 3.80 or higher.

It is easy to change pH. It is difficult to change pH of finished wine and have it taste good. While 1 gram per liter does not seem like a lot, I have seen it ruin otherwise drinkable wine.