Is this wine sediment or wine diamonds or both?

[Gekko4321]

I recently tried a 9 month old RJS EP Cab Sauv I made. I did not filter this wine and I did not cold stabilize it. It never has seen temps below 63. When I poured the wine into a decanter I was shocked to see the amount of sediment left behind. The funny thing is it sparkles likes diamonds though. Seeing as how the temp never got low enough to cause 'wine diamonds' to fall out I am confused over what I am looking at. Is this just sediment or can there be wine diamonds too? Bottle is room temp in this pic too. Is the amount of sediment unusual? Thanks!

 

[Brian]

That is very interesting. I will be interested in seeing what other people thing but here are a couple of questions. Do you have other bottles of this wine? If so I would check those to see if they are the same. Were these bottles new when you made the wine or is it possible the sediment was in there and just was disolved by the wine? I am sure you cleand them well if they were used but sometime we miss things. I agree I do not think they are wine diamonds but I am really not sure what it could be.

 

[Runningwolf]

Those are tartrates (wine diamonds). I had a Blush wine I did not C/S a few years ago and it dropped tartrates in my wine cellar that does not get below 63*.

 

[Gekko4321]

The bottles were perfectly clean. All of the rest (lets call this kit #1) appear to be the same when looking thru the bottle with a flashlight. Heavy sediment/diamonds. So wine diamonds can appear at any temp? Truthfully I suspect the wine never saw below 67 in the main floor of my house in southern California. I said 63 to be safe. Here is what doesn't make sense to me. I made the exact same wine (call it kit #2) with filtering and CS and it looks clean inside. The CS fallout was so minimal I questioned whether it worked at 40 degrees. The filter I used had almost zero evidence of sediment in the pad. So if CS and filter pad yielded little to no evidence of sediment and wine diamonds in kit #2, where can all of this be coming from in kit #1? The only mentionable diff is I bottled immediately with kit #1 and I bulk aged kit #2 for 6 months. Thoughts?

 

[ibglowin]

Wine diamonds can form over time irregardless of temp but cooler temps are better for formation. RJS EP wines seem to be the worst when it comes to tartrate crystal formation. YMMV as they say. Bulk aging is always a good idea for many reasons and this is just another one of them.

 

[rjb222]

Ibglowin is correct bitrate crystals form at any temperture. RJS EP wines are made from quality juice as is demonstrated by the formation of the bitrate crystals. Bulk age these wines and the bitrates will form in the carboy. That being said if you drop the temperture there will be another drop out so if you do not want the crystals cold stabilize and bulk age your wines.

 

[grapeman]

I agree with the previous posters. It is tartrates and they can form on their own even at higher temps. All they need is something to precipitate on, sort of like rain droplets forming on dust in the atmosphere. I had a customer last year get angry at me because she found a few wine diamonds in the bottom of a really good white wine. She didn't believe that there should be anything in there even when I tried explaining that it was a sign of a good wine that hasn't been filtered or overworked. If it bothers you, filter the wine even without CS and it will reduce precipitation points so you will get fewer diamonds forming.

 

[Gekko4321]

Wow, just when I think I am turning the corner in me learning! So I also bulk aged a RJS EP Sauvignon Blanc for 6 months with a cold stabilize for 1 month of that at 38 degrees. I then filtered it. Will I be getting sediment/diamonds in that bottle too? I was hoping it would stay 'clear'. As far as gifts to noobs, reds may be more forgivable. A white with drop out is much tougher.

 

[rjb222]

You should be fine with the Sauvingnon Blanc.

 

[robie]

1 month for C S for the Sav Blanc might be a little short. I would have gone at least 6 weeks. The big question is did you get any crystals in the Sav Blanc? If you did, you will probably be OK.

In some places, having wine diamonds is considered a good thing. In the USA, it is not so much, though. I wouldn't worry about it; just live and learn (and drink and enjoy the wine, anyway).

 

[ibglowin]

I just stabilized my RJS EP Sauv Blanc on Sunday. I will bulk age for 3 months and add the Crystal Block as well as filter just before bottling. Hopefully that will get me at least a year maybe more like 18 months. Time will tell.

 

[rjb222]

Metatartaric Acid will only hold the bitrate crystals in suspension for about six months. I have found that whites in this series drop out a lot less of the bitrate crystals than the reds. The Woodbridge Cab Sauv allways drops more crystals than the other variatals. With the bulk age and the cold stabilization most crystals should have dropped out. The filtering would only help if the crystals are forming and are larger than the micron of the pad any thing still in suspension would pass through the pad. The best way ensure that all crystals are out before bottling is to seed the crystals and cold stabilize for six to eight weeks.

 

[Gekko4321]

What I dont get is how I made 2 identical RJS EP Cab Sauvs at the same time and bulk aged one for 6 months and CS'ed for 1 month and had little evidence of fallout in either pad nor carboy. But the version that went straight to bottle has a measurable amount of drop out! I should have seen similar dropout in the filtered/CS'ed version right? Therein lies my confusion. And what is Crystal Block? I searched Google but got nothing related to wine. Just meta acid? And where do you even get that? I had a heck of a time getting that sent to me by RJS when packets of mine that were expired I wanted replaced. Something to do with illegalities shipping it here.

 

[rjb222]

There could be different factors involved that would cause the formation of crystals in one and not the other. It could be as simple as a different run of juice. On the box lid there is a date code when the must was put into the box. If there were two different date codes then that could be the reason. Other than that I really can not suggest why one and not the other. Here is a link that may help explain what the wine world thinks of bitrate crystals. http://winesworld.com/index.php/wine-crystals/68/
Here is a google link from a query I made that has lots of links about this.
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&sclient....,cf.osb&fp=936be80b0c27ede5&biw=1317&bih=713

 

[Wade E]

It could also be that this is a concentrate and sometimes it just doesnt get mixed properly just like if you dont stir it up good in primary before testing your beginning sg. There was at least 1 case I remember of someones kit being so thick (concentrated) that the hydrometer almost stuck in the must! Thsat being said though the sg would have been higher on your kit unless the acids werent dispersed (balanced) properly.

 

[ibglowin]

According to the literature it will stop it for 12 mo. This is my first use of it so I will report back with results.

Metatartaric Acid will only hold the bitrate crystals in suspension for about six months.

 

[Brian]

Well I am glad someone asked that question! I never knew that. Wine diamonds without cold stabilazation.. huh who da thunk... Lear something new every day.. That is why I am glad I read this forum.. Thanks all!

 

[Gekko4321]

Same here Mike. Running it in 3 batches so will report back what I find.

 

[rjb222]

According to the literature it will stop it for 12 mo. This is my first use of it so I will report back with results.

I have been with RJS as a supplier for 5 + years and I have allways been told 6 months. Do you have a link?

 

[SouthernChemist]

What I dont get is how I made 2 identical RJS EP Cab Sauvs at the same time and bulk aged one for 6 months and CS'ed for 1 month and had little evidence of fallout in either pad nor carboy. But the version that went straight to bottle has a measurable amount of drop out! I should have seen similar dropout in the filtered/CS'ed version right? Therein lies my confusion. And what is Crystal Block? I searched Google but got nothing related to wine. Just meta acid? And where do you even get that? I had a heck of a time getting that sent to me by RJS when packets of mine that were expired I wanted replaced. Something to do with illegalities shipping it here.

From what I understand, metatartaric acid is when tartaric acid esterifies itself...you could think of it as a polymer form of tartaric acid. This compound disrupts the regular arrangement of tartrates necessary for crystallization, so no crystals form in the wine. It is not stable under the acidic conditions found in wine, however, and it likely converts back to tartaric acid or an ethyl ester of tartaric acid. Either way, the disruption of crystallization is temporary and dependent on the pH of your wine.