RJ Spagnols Is kit quality degrading with new high end kits?

[fiat84]

Had an interesting discussion this past weekend over a big family dinner which resulted in someone stating my usually highly regarded wine has gone down in quality.

We opened a 4 year old Cellar Classic Grande Shiraz, lots of body, a nice fruit forward taste typical of a full flavored Shiraz and loved by all.

Then right after had my 16 month old Cellar Classic Shiraz and Cab/Shiraz, both of these while still good were not as full bodied or as flavorful. Have made these two kits a few times in the past and normally the Shiraz got great at about 1 year and the Cab/Shiraz at 18 months. These were always extraordinary gems historically. It could be just that years crop was not as good.

To be more thorough to these finding brought out a 3.5 year old Cellar Classic Pinot Noir and a 4 year old Valpolicella, again both had more body and flavor compared to the new kits.

I had mentioned looking at the EP and Winery Series and one of the non-wine makers commented that these new high end kits could be where the better grapes must be going now. I had thought the high end kits were sourced from a new supply of high quality grapes.

Just curious if anyone else has noticed this quality difference or is it just a one year anomaly? Will be moving up to the Winery Series myself from now on to be safe.

 

[smurfe]

I think you nailed it. Year to year crop quality changes. You will not have the exact same juice year to year and even in the same year it depends on where the juice is sourced. Remember to that juice in kits don't always come from the same source or even region.

 

[Bartman]

That's a great question - are the new/different kits just a re-packaging of the existing kits, with a new, lower-quality product being used in the lower-end kits? I would certainly hope not, but such a program would fit with other consumer-product downgrades (fewer potato chips in the same size bag, 25% reduction of ice cream containers for the same price, etc.).

One point against this theory is the inclusion of grape skins with the newer higher end kits - a kit "upgrade" that was not available previously.

Of course there is far more potential variability in the source grapes for these kits than for most winemakers, as we never know exactly where the grapes/juice/concentrate are coming from, beyond the country of origin (if that can be trusted). Even the Barolo kits, which are supposed to be 100% Nebbiolo grapes from the Piedmont region, could be something else - how could you or I tell from only smelling/tasting the juice?

I'm certain that the kit-makers won't admit your theory is correct. even if it is. Are there any insiders who might anonymously disclose such secrets? I'm eager to here other thoughts.

 

[JimCook]

You're right, BartReeder - there's no guarantee that the kits even contain the type of grapes you expect them to contain. The use of the word 'style' is a blatant indication of this, although most kits seem to be made to imitate certain styles regardless of grapes used. There have been posts, for example, about named juice origins in the 'title' of the kitwith a sticker noting a different origin. And when you have a kit effectively named, "<insert unique French name here>," there's no idea what the juice used is.
- Jim

 

[Dean]

Its true to a point, however, if you purchase a kit that is Shiraz, it must contain over 80% of Shiraz/Syrah juice/concentrate by law here in Canada. Since they are manufactured here, that is the law they will follow.

My guess is that while they try to control the quality and general results you get with kits, harvest quality will naturally play a big factor. They do have the luxury to blend from both Northern hemisphere and Southern hemishphere harvests though.

I do think the testing was a little flawed though. You started with a 4 year old wine, moved to a 16 month old wine, then back to a 3.5 year old wine. That's quite an age gap, as well as much different styles. the Grande Shiraz is made to be over-the-top big, while the other Shiraz and Cab/Shiraz are not made to be as big.

I would state that yes, grape pack kits do pack a much richer taste, not just due to the juice/concentrate but also to the addition of the skins.

Note to BartReeder: Barolo kits from any manufacturer will not come from 100% nebbiolo from Peidmont unless specified on the label as 100% nebbiolo from the Piedmont DOC. Only very few kits go so far as to name the region (EP kits do, Estate Series does, but little else).

I'm somewhat of a kit "insider", and I can state that kit makers like to stay close to style, but are allowed to make choices that will bring the style closer to their commercial counterparts. As stated above, they source juice/concentrate from both hemispheres and blend it. Only the most exceptional gets put in the top line kits and given a region. However, they do try to keep the ratios of varietals true to style. If you are going to get a View Chateau du Roi (Chateauneuf du Pape), you can pretty much bet it will contain mostly Grenache, with variable levels of Mouvedre, Syrah, Cinsault, etc, to make it as close as possible each year to a typical rhone region red.

 

[Bartman]

While I am not so naive as to actually expect Barolo kits to comply with the rules for Barolo wines, it's a fair point to ask, why not? A principal reason I got interested in making wine was the savings of making several types of wine that cost a lot more for commercial products (ports, Barolo, Brunello, high-quality Chiantis, Chateauneuf du Pape), so why shouldn't I expect the kits labelled as such to follow the rules imposed on the commercial winemakers?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and am not really upset by the fact that they may not play by exactly the same set of rules. I've been quite satisfied by the wines I have made and am patiently waiting for some to age 2-3 years to see how they compare to $40-$50 commercial products.

Are there any winemakers here that make the same type and brand of wine kit once a year, such that they would expect the final product to be very similar from year to year? That seems like it would take much of the fun out of the experimentation that goes with winemaking, but it would satsify regular wine needs.

 

[JimCook]

From what I've heard, the wine kit manufacturers strive for consistency year over year in their specific wines. To what degree this is achieved, I don't know, but I'm guessing that most people that made a particular kit one year and want to make it again would like to have a similar result.


When I asked Matteo Meglioli about the sourcing of fruit from different parts of the world, he said that sourcing fruit for kits can be challenging, especially for overseas projects as the vineyard essentially needed to have an expensive setup ready to prepare the juice on the spot. I'm guessing that's why it's possible that you won't find 100% Nebbiolo in your Barolo kits, for example. It comes down to the all mighty <insert unit of currency here> and the scale of economics, as they are in business after all.


- Jim