Inert Gas Use--solid bung vs airlock?

[saramc]

If one uses inert gas (argon, CO2, nitrogen--they are the key three, right?) to top off their carboy (not talking half the container) as they bulk age should you use a solid cap or bung fitted with airlock. Or does it matter?
I have been all over the web trying to find an answer. Been driving me crazy.
I have been trying to look thru threads but may have overlooked the answer, so any links to useful threads will help also.

Thanks! Sara

 

[Runningwolf]

Sara, I only use solid corks on wines after at least 6-09 months and then rarely use them. I just like the extra protection of an airlock if the barometric pressure or temperature changes. With that said there is no rule on which bung to use when using an inert gas.

We talked about using an inert gas a feew weeks ago and when we use them. Let me tell you what happened to me. I racked several wines out of my freezer that are ready to bottle.. I fell short in 3 carboys and had to add bottled wine to them. I was out of Argon. This was a perfect time to use it since I'll be bottling it in a week or two.

 

[ibglowin]

Inert gas should NEVER be used for bulk aging. Any questions?

An airlock will always let stuff out, including inert gas. Again, any questions?

 

[saramc]

Oh I realize it is not meant for use in the whole bulk aging process, bad word choice on my part. But perhaps if you have volume loss for some reason, perhaps that hopeful last racking & you are monitoring for another month for sediment and you have nothing to top up with, or perhaps your bottling process interrupted...a short term fix.

But why do articles say to redo the gas application on a monthly basis? What would you use inert gas for more than a month for?

And if your wine is not fully degassed you would not want to use inert because the dissolved CO2 would simply remain trapped in solution, right?

ibg...give me some scenarios of when one might use inert gas in a carboy? And you only use a solid bung then if using inert gas?

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Hi Sara
This is a thread that was discussed about a week ago that I believe Dan was talking about -
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/how-not-top-off-36795/

 

[JohnT]

Saramc,

This topic has come up several time in the past.

I honestly do not know where people get the idea that using inert gas is a great way to store wine in a container that has a lot of headspace. Whoever gave you this idea was dead wrong!

1) Just because you squirt in some argon, it does not mean that you have evacuated ALL of the air in the container. Unless you are working under clinical conditions, you will always have residual air in the container.

2) Gasses mix. It is not like oil and water! Inert gasses only reduces the amount of air exposure. Inert gas does not form any kind of protective barrier over your wine.

3) All gasses expand and contract with temperature changes. Temperature changes along with barameteric changes have the effect of having your container "Breathe". The headspace gas (over time) will escape to the outside through the path of least resistance. This could either be through the point of contact of the stopper and you container, or through a fermentation trap (if used). The oposite is also true, outside air will get into your container as well. In short, over time, your argon will go "bye-bye".

Inert gas should only be used when you either have a tight pressure seal (a stopper does not qualify) or only as a measure for the very short term (say no more than 2 weeks).

I know of a lot of batches that became oxidized simply because the winemaker was lured into a false sense of security. I have seen folks almost reduced to tears saying "I can't understand it, I used argon and it STILL became oxidized".

My advise is this, Keep the container full and save the money you would spend on inert gas and its equipment. Spend the mony on grapess instead! By keeping the container full, there is very little expansion and contraction that will occur, thus just a miniscule amount of "Breathing" occurs and your wine will be much, much, safer.

If topping up your container is not an option, just check out this thread...

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/

 

[saramc]

John....thanks. Your answer was most useful. I simply was not sold on the use of inert gas and would get flustered reading posts describing their use or seeing photos, etc. And in my head I was saying 'the science behind that isn't working like that, or in that way'. I likely expressed myself horribly. As far as the air bladders, Steve and I have already talked about them. And the thread Steve referenced helped.
I will eventually start force carbing and wanted to get more of a feel on use of inert gas use in case I decided to branch out...and feel like an idiot for having had to post.

 

[BernardSmith]

Let's agree that it is bad practice to use inert gases to fill headroom, but I don't understand the principles that JohnT is using. If I am bulk aging after I have removed all CO2 and I am using a water filled airlock then if gases which are inert and heavier than air can be expelled from the carboy through the water trap then why can't air enter the carboy through the same water trap. And if air cannot enter the carboy because of the barrier created by the water trap how does a gas which is heavier than air seep upwards and out when the only pressure acting on it is air pressure from the outside (if we are talking about degassed carboys) or can this happen when the ambient air pressure falls dramatically? ; and lastly, if I am pushing a gas which is heavier than air into the mouth of a carboy why doesn't that quantity of gas expel and replace the lighter air, so if I push in 3 cubic inches of gas into a space of 2 cubic inches why wouldn't all the air be expelled and replaced by the gas? If the gas is as heavy as air then my questions make no sense, but if the gas is in fact heavier than air then why should there be an inherent problem. There may be a problem because of the way I push the gas or fail to measure the amount of gas I am using and so forth but if gases behave as JohnT suggests I guess I don't understand the principles. So, sure gases mix, but will a gas that is significantly heavier than air float up through air to mix by itself? And if I mixed the inert gas with air as I pushed it into the mouth of the carboy , wouldn't these two separate much like water and oil? Clearly I am missing something. but what?

 

[ibglowin]

The airlock no matter how well it is inserted is not at tight as you think. It will leak over time. Back in 2009 I really, really wanted inert gas to be a wonder cure all so I wrote in to Winemaker Magazine and the "Wine Wizard" actually answered the question and it was printed in the Magazine as well as online.

Argon Use in Winemaking

 

[robie]

The airlock no matter how well it is inserted is not at tight as you think.

I agree whole-heartedly. This is true even for a solid bung. Things are just not as air tight as one might think, especially with swings in barometric pressure and possibly temperature changes.