Fair price for Frsh Norton Must?

[DaveL]

A Local vineyard has said he will sell me Norton grapes, whole or pressed with skins or without. I want to buy enough to fill 3, 6.5 carboys.
I want to buy them pressed w/ skins in 5 gallon buckets.

How many buckets should I get and What would be a high and low end price I should expect to pay?
They will be untreated in any way I believe and I will start them that day.
He said to check with him around the first week of Sept.

 

[bchilders]

Hi Dave, I would buy them by the pound on the stem and expect to need about 110 lbs per carboy but the vineyard should be able to direct you on that. I have paid around $1.75/lb for whole carmenere grapes from Chile but had to crush and de-stem them myself. I would not expect to pay more for Norton grapes but crushing and pressing does add more labor. Hope this helps..

 

[lawrstin]

Norton in my area generally goes for .70 a pound. 300 lbs would be sufficient to make 20 gallons. I would let them sit on the skins to get some color before pressing.

 

[lawrstin]

Make sure you run them through a crusher/destemmer (sitting on skins). You probably know this.

 

[salcoco]

I would ferment in large brute container. adjust Ph to about 3.4 adding tartaric acid regardless of acid level. add powdered tannin and enzyme also. cold stabilize post ferment after clearing to remove excess acid. In Kansas can get from .5-1.00/lb crushed and destemmed.

 

[DaveL]

Not having a press yet or a destemmer/ crusher I am glad he offered to press them for me. I think he meant crush. I do intend to leave them on the skins. But this is only my second real grape attempt, my first being the concord I started on Fri. so I appreciate any help.
Can anyone recommend a thread that might lead me through the proper steps when using fresh grapes?
I missed the pectic enzyme on the concord. Just got too excited I guess.
So it sounds like I should expect to pay between $70 to $100 for enough must to do a carboy. But he did say that he was going to back it down from the tonnage price. Perhaps I'll get a deal then.

 

[DaveL]

I would ferment in large brute container. adjust Ph to about 3.4 adding tartaric acid regardless of acid level. add powdered tannin and enzyme also. cold stabilize post ferment after clearing to remove excess acid. In Kansas can get from .5-1.00/lb crushed and destemmed.

Thanks. Would this be a grape that would benefit from MLF? I've never done that.
Also this is a grape that would benefit from oaking right?
I may get a small barrel in time to age these.
I do intend to visit Horton, Barbourville and maybe Chrysallis, and try and soak up some wisdom. All are local vineyards with popular Norton wines.
Of course I am going to get as much advice as I can from Bruce at Byrd Cellars and Constellation Vineyards who is kind enough to share some of his crop with me.

 

[lawrstin]

Thanks. Would this be a grape that would benefit from MLF? I've never done that.
Also this is a grape that would benefit from oaking right?
I may get a small barrel in time to age these.
I do intend to visit Horton, Barbourville and maybe Chrysallis, and try and soak up some wisdom. All are local vineyards with popular Norton wines.
Of course I am going to get as much advice as I can from Bruce at Byrd Cellars and Constellation Vineyards who is kind enough to share some of his crop with me.

Chrysalis tells me you are in Virginia. I am originally from that area and they have an impressive vineyard.

I would definitely let the tannins cold soak. It's a simple process and Norton's color can often be compared to a Cabernet Sauvignon.

Make sure you transport you crushed and destemmered buckets of Norton cold. I'm guessing you may have a one or two hour drive.

I recommend skipping the MLF and just cold soak macerate, Camden tablets crushed, press ( you may not even have to do), yeast nutrient and yeast and oak later.

 

[DaveL]

Chrysalis tells me you are in Virginia. I am originally from that area and they have an impressive vineyard.

I would definitely let the tannins cold soak. It's a simple process and Norton's color can often be compared to a Cabernet Sauvignon.

Make sure you transport you crushed and destemmered buckets of Norton cold. I'm guessing you may have a one or two hour drive.

I recommend skipping the MLF and just cold soak macerate, Camden tablets crushed, press ( you may not even have to do), yeast nutrient and yeast and oak later.

I live west of Richmond. The grapes are 10 minutes from the house tops. What do you mean by cold soak. I this after crushing and before pitching the yeast? Are you literally soaking the must with some bagged ice inside to cool it? While the Pectic Enzyme works? How cold and how long.
Or are you referring to a cold stabilization later in the process?
Remember I am a from grape virgin so to speak.
I think I am going to start another thread to address this.

Where did you live? Loudon area? I have family all over NOVA.

 

[lawrstin]

That's right, take a few empty gallon milk cartons or gallon water jugs and fill with water then freeze them. Do not over fill the jugs with water about 8/10 full and freeze them. Add camden, then Toss a few of the frozen jugs in your must once a day, of course, the outside of the jugs are cleaned with solution. This will bring out color and flavor before you pitch the yeast.

 

[DaveL]

Crush, de-stem, add K-meta. 12 -24 hours later add Enzyme, 12 -24 hours later add yeast right. Add Frozen jugs once daily to must until pitching yeast. Is there a target temp during this?
When do you remove the skins and press, after primary fermentation is over?

 

[lawrstin]

Dave

The greatest thing about being a wine maker is there is no one exact formula to making the wine you enjoy.

You have the opportunity to make three different wines since you are using three 6.5 gallon carboys or one type. It is totally your personal touch that will make you a unique crafter of wine.

Experimentation can be interesting. The end goal being good taste that you personally enjoy.

Lawrence

 

[salcoco]

I would also avoid MLF especially for your first time with grape fermentation. Instead use a yeast such as 71B, that consumes about 50% of the malic acid during fermentation. It will give you a better wine. also save some money, use Hungarian oak cubes first time out, can control the addition of oak better by tasting as wine ages. As you gain experience the additional techniques and equipment will be easier to implement.

 

[DaveL]

Dave

The greatest thing about being a wine maker is there is no one exact formula to making the wine you enjoy.

You have the opportunity to make three different wines since you are using three 6.5 gallon carboys or one type. It is totally your personal touch that will make you a unique crafter of wine.

Experimentation can be interesting. The end goal being good taste that you personally enjoy.

Lawrence

Lawrence

There is a lot of truth in that no doubt. I've had my share of f#$ups,errr experiments in my fruits so far. lol.
I get what you mean seriously but never having done it from grapes yet I want to do a best as I can. No doubt there is a lot to learn and experience along the way.
This forum is such a great tool I am sure I am years ahead of where I would have been without it. When I get to differing opinions presented, neither being right or wrong, is when I learn the most as I then have to learn both sides to the question and decide what will work best for my situation.

 

[jswordy]

Norton is $1.50 a pound u-pick here. Takes ~ 120 pounds for 10 gallons. I like RC212 in almost any red I do anymore, so I'll use it in this.

If you hit it right, you will have an inky dark wine, light impermeable or darned near to it, with great tannic structure that is best left dry. The best of the commercial Nortons I have had have a bouquet that reminds me of smoked meat – just mouthwatering.

I have tested a number of commercial Nortons and they come in at 1.000 finished. That's my target. Start SG then can be backed up and generally falls 1.080-1.090, I am told. It does benefit from French oak. I am awaiting Norton ripeness here in hopes of making my first batch this year, as well.

 

[dburling]

Jswordy- Where in TN are you finding pick your own grapes?

 

[lawrstin]

This year in Missouri Norton is going for eighty cent a pound picked.

 

[jswordy]

Jswordy- Where in TN are you finding pick your own grapes?

You can find vineyards online here: http://www.tennesseewines.com/vineyards.htm

In my county (Lincoln), there's a guy who has a good-sized U-pick vineyard of muscadines and scuppernongs.

Nearby in Madison County, Ala., is the vineyard where they have muscadines, scuppernongs and Norton.

If I lived in Missouri, I am sure Norton would be cheaper, as lawrstin says. The state is covered with them; it's the state grape! Norton grapes are extremely hard to find in my home region. Norton wine is virtually nonexistent. I looked a year and a half before I found a Norton - at of all places, SuperTarget!

BTW, people looking for Norton should also ask about Cynthiana - which many botanists think is actually the same grape or a very very closely related one.

 

[lawrstin]

As far as I know Cythiana and Norton are interchangeable. Actually, Norton is the most expensive grape grown among the French-Canadian hybrids and Vitis Lambruscas in Missouri. You can purchase Concord, Rougeon, St Vincent, Niagra, and Delaware at lower price per pound. The state of Virginia has an abundance of vineyards that grow Norton.

 

[DaveL]

Nortons do so well here that I was at a Winery/ Vineyard in New Kent today and they said that all there grapes are grafted onto Norton Roots. Funny though the Owner doesn't like a dark Norton so they make a White Norton.