Does this look normal (sorry, I know it's a dumb question)?

[Just-a-Guy]

Hi Winemakers,

This is only my second post, after my introduction. I'm moderately familiar with fermentation, but just this past weekend randomly decided to try to make some wine. Now I'm worried (alas).

Here's what I did. I picked up some Potassium Metabisulfite, and some Yeast Food, and some Champagne Yeast, and some Corn Sugar, all from my LHBS house. Got some grape juice ("organic, no additives") and some grape juice concentrate ("100% grape juice") from the Stop-N-Shop. Cleaned and sanitized (StarSan, for everything) my regular brew pot (10 gal aluminum pot) (boiled water in it first to sterilize). Heated up 7 frozen juice concentrates and two gallons of organic grape juice in the pot, along with about 3 gallons of distilled water, to 140 degrees, and let it hold there for about 10 mins (probably unnecessary, but I can't make anything without heating it... I'm a home brewer...). Added about 5 lbs corn sugar. Stirred (made my 10 year old do it, actually).

Then (after first sterilizing in boiling water), slipped in the wort chiller and ran it until I had the liquid down to about 80 degrees. Poured it into a 7 gallon plastic fermentation bucket (boiled water in, sanitized first). Added a TS or so of the Sulfite, similar amount of yeast nutrient. Stirred (10 year old). When temp was about 75, pitched the yeast. Let it sit for 10 mins, stirred (10 year old). Pulled off a bit into the wine thief, checked it -- 090 spot on.

Sterilized/sanitized a 5 gal carboy, then funneled the entire batch (just under 5 gals) into it, added a bit of water and a bit of sugar to top up to full 5 gals. Wine thief, still 090. Capped it and installed air lock.

Put it behind my bar in the basement.

Sit for three days. Four days. Nothing. No bubbles, no nothing. Hm.

Put a small space heater about 18 inches away, set on 72, left it all day today. Now I'm seeing some action. Foam bubbles on top. Not much air lock activity so far.

I *think* this looks ok, and I should be on track. But being new to this, I'm paranoid. So... do these pics look right? I'm assuming at this rate it will be 3-4 weeks in the carboy, maybe I'll siphon off into a clean carboy and maybe add a fining agent, then another week or so, then siphon off to taste, then bottle?

Help a newbie, please?

 

[dralarms]

That's not real clear, are you sure it's not mold?

 

[the_rayway]

It does look a bit indistinct.

You may have killed your yeast because you are supposed to wait 12-24 hours after adding sulphite before pitching your yeast.

My suggestion is to dump it back into the brew bucket (after checking to make sure that stuff isn't mold), whip the snot out of it and re-pitch another yeast. If it appears that the stuff on top is not mold, but yeast activity, I would still suggest dumping it into the bucket and whipping it. Yeast likes lots of oxygen to get going.

Good luck!

 

[mikewatkins727]

. . . he added a TS (?) of sulfite or so . . . He may have sulfited the yeast into oblivion presuming "TS' is a tablespoon.

Seems there's an awful lot of sterilizing going on here.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Is a lot of sterilization bad (I'm used to beer, where it's seriously critical to be clean)???

Anyway, I think I misspoke about the sulfite. Here's the instruction that I followed (random website):

"Take 1/2 teaspoon of your Sulfite and mix it into 125 mL/4.25 fluid ounces. Take 100mL /3 1/3 oz and discard the remaining amount."

So roughly 1/2 tsp, not TS. Dissolved in water first, then poured into the mix toward the end (but before the yeast) and stirred in.

I had no idea you're supposed to wait to add the sulfite. Dangit.

And no, I'm not entirely sure it's not mold. I can tell you, it's multiplying at an incredibly rapid rate at this point. A couple of hours from the first pics above, here's what it's looking like (actually it doesn't look like mold to me, it looks like bubbles):

 

[peaches9324]

Is it hissing? If it is then its fermenting

 

[vacuumpumpman]

A couple of recommendations
always do a starter batch of yeast then put it in
the concentrates you used - did they have preservatives already in them ?

It does appear to look like mold - but pictures are sometimes hard to tell ?

Eventually I would change your orange bung - as I have found out that they typically don't seal very well - all depending on the carboy neck diameter

use go-ferm and fermaid

 

[peaches9324]

oh yea and fyi fermentation goes a lot smoother in the bucket with a dish towel placed over it, the oxygen is actually good for the fermentation and you need to keep it stirred once a day. Some people do ferment in carboys but I don't think this allows enough oxygen to get to it. Then transfer to carboy when sg is 1.010 or less. Don't worry too much about the lees or trobe in beer making terms getting in there your first racking.

quote:"I had no idea you're supposed to wait to add the sulfite. Dangit"

you wait to add the yeast after sulfite

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Thanks so much, folks. I really appreciate the help. I don't think it's mold, because it is very dynamic. Foamed all up, and now it is much less visible on top of the wine. And I seem to be getting a little bit of visible airlock activity. No audible noise, but it is obviously slow.

Also, yes, I agree -- these orange caps don't seal well (although I've had beer fermenting so much I had to add a blow-off tube).

I'm thinking it was slow starting due to low temps. Basement bar, on the floor, probably low to mid 60's until I put the little heater near it. Worried about the oxygen. Will read up before next batch. I think within 24 hours I should know if this thing is fermenting or rotting....

 

[vacuumpumpman]

I would pick up another package of yeast - just in case.

Take some juice out in a cup or petri dish and add some yeast energizer and nutrient if you have them and place them in a dark area for approx 30 minutes. You should have a big head on it and very active - pour it in to preferably a bucket and do not stir - keep the yeast together as they will have a better chance living.

 

[garymc]

For a 5 gallon batch, you use one fourth of a teaspoon of k-meta and then wait 12 hours for the sulfite gas to kill everything and dissipate some. Then add the yeast after 12 hours (some recipes say 12 to 24 hours.) Wine yeasts are somewhat resistant to sulfite, so the yeast should be the first thing to survive/wake up and start working. I suspect the stuff in there is your yeast working after all that sterilization and sanitization.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

OK... so this morning, the airlock is bubbling like crazy, and there is now a purplish foam on top. The activity is so much that the top of the wine appears to be alive, foam moving around. Also a kinda icky smell. So I guess it's working now? I'm actually a little concerned I may have to add a blow-off tube.

Noted on the sequence for next batch, thank you! Ya reckon this one will come out ok despite my flubs?

 

[dralarms]

Looks like it's working now. I think you should be good.

 

[SubVet]

Umm, I'm new here but I think you should take the stopper and airlock off. Just cover it loosely until the primary ferment is done. The other guys on here should back me up, but usually the primary ferment is in a bucket with a loose lid/cover (and a daily stir)...once SG indicates the primary ferment is complete you rack it to the carboy (with stopper and airlock) for secondary fermentation.

But it looks good now

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Thanks for the continuing help.

I am a little confused about the suggestion (several people made) that fermentation (at least primary) should be done in a bucket rather than a carboy. I certainly have plenty of buckets, have used them for beer, but even with beer I eventually moved to carboys, because I think they are easier to keep clean and provide better ongoing visibility of the fermentation, clearing, etc.

I'm also a little confused about the suggestion of a loose lid and daily stirring. Doesn't this contribute a risk of contamination? I've never had a batch of beer fail to fully ferment and reach anticipated SG in a carboy, just sitting for a few weeks?

I'm not questioning or challenging these suggestions -- I very much appreciate all the help. I just don't understand them. I will continue reading and studying, but if anyone feels inclined to be kind enough to help me out here in understanding this, I would sure appreciate it. I may whip up another batch while this one is still fermenting, and would like to make sure I do it right.

Thanks!

Mark

 

[richmke]

On average, beer is 1/2 the alcohol level of wine. So, it needs less oxygen to ferment. It also has less alcohol to protect it.

Yes, having a loose lid and daily stirring does increase the risk of contamination. But, the benefit of dispersing the yeast, and additional oxygen, to help fermentation offsets the risk (risk vs reward).

 

[kryptonitewine]

Sanitation is important with all brewing, however wine is much more forgiving than beer. Wine you can ferment in a primary bucket with no lid. Cover with a towel to keep out nasties. This is often the preferred method as it invites oxygen to the party for the yeast. If you stir it sanitize the spoon first. A lot of us use fruit and have to squeeze the bagged fruit daily (sanitize your hands first). No way you could do any of that with beer, you'd have a nasty, moldy mess!

 

[cintipam]

Welcome to the forum!

First, it looks like folks have given you some really good advice and helped you tweak your first attempt along the path to becoming wine. But I gotta say I read your original procedure and you did a lot of things that were not killer to the wine, but not best practice either. And they were a lot of work! Honestly making wine is a very different procedure than making beer (never made beer, but read enough about it). For wine making spring or even aged tap water (provided it is decent drinking water then aged to reduce chlorine) is much better than distilled water. Also we don't need to heat to 140 degrees much less hold it there. Inserting a wort chiller to cool it isn't necessary if you don't heat it. You already heard about Kmeta amounts and timing. Anyway, life would be a lot easier for you if you would read how to make wine and stop trying to use beer making methods. I'm sure your beer is excellent, but for wine you are working way too hard to the detriment of the food and health of the much beloved yeasties.

Again I've searched for a link outlining basic winemaking steps and I never am able to find one. Hopefully other folks will post a few links to read to help you get the basic required steps for winemaking.

Pam in cinti

 

[Just-a-Guy]

OK, thanks very much, folks, I think I'm catching on.

One further question on this. So, the idea that wine requires less concern with contamination because of the higher ABV's... does this apply in the early stages of the fermentation? Seems like the answer is yes, because the practice seems to be to do the primary in a more open vessel. But... wouldn't the ABV be very low in the early stages, so there really isn't the level of alcohol in there that would kill off nasties at that point.

Is it just that the nasties get killed later as the fermentation increases?

Mark

 

[cintipam]

Cleanliness is always important. Anything that will touch the wine should be rinsed with a strong Kmeta solution (instructions on pkg.) Some use star san or one step. But primary fermentation bubbles and foams quite a bit, plus needs lots of oxygen to not stress the yeast. Stressed yeast produce sulphur that is pretty hard to eradicate from the wine. Not to mention that the excess foaming (some yeast foam more than others) can and often will exceed the little airlock and spill (sometimes even shoot like a fountain) out of your carboy and create a real mess. Much healthier for the yeast and easier to stir to keep it in a sanitized bucket and use a sanitized spoon twice daily to stir well to incorporate oxygen for the yeasties. I use a large cloth over the top (I respray lightly with the kmeta solution every time I replace it after stirring) and often use a tied elastic band (washed then dipped into the sulphite generally for the first application only) to hold the cloth tightly in place esp when fruit flies are present. Fruit flies are a real problem as they carry the bacteria that can turn your wine into vinegar. So sanitation is very important, but the required steps are different than beer. I do believe the later wine with higher alch does hold bad nasties in check. But we also add an additional dose of kmeta when we are certain the fermentation is complete to knock them back a lot to help that alch keep things safe. Again, I believe that but have never seen anyone else state that the abv is crucial for preventing wine spoilage. They do say lower ABV wines should be consumed early, and I guess that is a round about way of confirming that alch does help prevent spoilage.

I finally found a link that might help. Here is a basic page outlining 3 basic ways to make wine. In the 3rd section about Fresh fruit are links to 2 free manuals about wine making broken down to basics for either red or white wine making. Procedures differ, so read whichever one applies to your project.

http://morewinemaking.com/content/newtowinemaking

Pam in cinti