Can vineyard exist without chemical treatment?

[Dusan]

Hi.

I wondering, can vineyard exist without chemical treatment?

I get it for grapes, grapes will not bee good or will be totally damaged without chemical treatment. That is clear.
But does vine will survive.

I ask this for variations like Chardonnay, Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc, Zinfandelm and similar.

Thank you.

 

[VinesnBines]

The answer is "It depends." It depends on location most of all. I think vinifera survive better in California without as much chemical usage. (Someone help me here.) On the East Coast - Virginia especially, the vines are subjected to heavy Downy and Powdery Mildew pressure as well as anthracnose and black rot. Black rot is a grape disease and does not seem to affect the vine. All the others do affect the foliage and over time can weaken the vine. Heathy foliage is required for vine health. The vine will survive but for how long? And the vines look like crap by the end of a hot, humid season.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* your list is vinifera varieties. They will do better in a low humidity environment therefore less chemical is dosed in dry parts of the country than in humid regions. . . . As @VinesnBines said it depends where you are growing your grapes. From a historical point most chemicals available date a hundred years (sulphur is several hundred) so yes grapes have grow without chemicals for a thousand years. Just not in Virginia!
* if you step away from Vinifera and look at natives as concord (mom grew them) or the hybrid varieties as Briana they do quite well. I spray Japanese beetles on the vineyard but at home I take a jar on two plants and catch them ,, and dump em in with the chickens. Also, I didn’t know black rot till I had fifty plants concentrating on mostly vinifera genes. A general conclusion is the more it tastes like a wine grape the less it is adapted to eastern US.
* I am cutting varieties as Frontenac and trying more black rot resistant seedlings from the compost pile. There are good “organic“ capable plants out there, we just have to find them, ,,, especially back yard growers who don’t want a spray program. In the mean time I will propagate the ones that survive with less work.

 

[Snafflebit]

Organic and biodynamic vineyards can be found in California. Insects are rarely a problem here (leafhoppers sometimes). However, the vines still need to be sprayed with sulfur to stop powdery mildew or the vines are less productive.

 

[Dusan]

So at the end vineyard will be gone through years without protection and sulfur is minimum step for protection, like organic and biodynamic vineyards.
I don't want to use chemicals who will degrade my soil and health.

I plant very little amount of vines for test. Location is Europe, 960-990m above sea. There is no fog (in late fall and winter we have very rarely). Also no moist. No hard winds. Soil is slope and look at shout with good drainage. Minimum measured temperature ever in winter is -20, but that happen two times in 60 years. But we can have late frost in spring. So I think I can go only with sulfur.

 

[VinesnBines]

Are there vineyards nearby? If so you might ask what insect and disease issues they have. At least the agriculture department or ministry should be able to give you some idea what to expect.

 

[Rice_Guy]

So at the end vineyard will be gone through years without protection and sulfur is minimum step for protection, like organic and biodynamic vineyards.

first off, welcome to Wine Making Talk Dusan

when we use any chemical treatment it is to improve the yield for commercial purposes
grapes grow like weeds

 

[Dusan]

first off, welcome to Wine Making Talk Dusan

when we use any chemical treatment it is to improve the yield for commercial purposes
grapes grow like weeds

Thank you. That sound promising

Are there vineyards nearby? If so you might ask what insect and disease issues they have. At least the agriculture department or ministry should be able to give you some idea what to expect.

Nope, there no one growing grapes. I know, sounds crazy. But I have one white grape variation (I think is "Zilavka") and grows very good like vine but fruit get Uncinula necator in most of years in august/september. I don't use anything of chemical.

 

[balatonwine]

when we use any chemical treatment it is to improve the yield for commercial purposes
grapes grow like weeds

If I did not spray, my grapes would die. Leaves and fruits are attacked from any number of American imported pests. In fact, I have lost many even so, and even despite, that I do spray. There is a lot of disease pressure here.

If grapes were like "weeds" here, they would not need such TLC.

In short, each area is different as well at the vine varietals being grown, and that needs to be considered rather than blanket statements. Hope this helps.

 

[balatonwine]

I wondering, can vineyard exist without chemical treatment?

In Europe, growing vinifera? Yes. In some places like Santorini.

I plant very little amount of vines for test. Location is Europe, 960-990m above sea. There is no fog (in late fall and winter we have very rarely). Also no moist. No hard winds. Soil is slope and look at shout with good drainage. Minimum measured temperature ever in winter is -20, but that happen two times in 60 years. But we can have late frost in spring. So I think I can go only with sulfur.

If you could tell us exactly where you are, everyone can provide better input, suggestions and ideas.

I also live in Europe. So might (or might not) be able to assist better than some in the USA, because.... yes things are different here.

 

[VinesnBines]

yes things are different here.

Things are different EVERYWHERE when growing grapes. That is why the old real estate adage fits: The three most important things are; location, location, location.

 

[balatonwine]

Things are different EVERYWHERE when growing grapes. That is why the old real estate adage fits: The three most important things are; location, location, location.

A bit more complicated than simply geography. Including what organic spray are available and sold in each country. And if one needs a "certificate" showing you have been trained how to apply them, before one can even buy them.

For example, another option for powdery mildew control is potassium bicarbonate. Which is even more soil friendly than sulfur (it also does not harm beneficial insects like sulfur can). But one can not buy that in all parts of Europe for agricultural applications, and if one can, it may need a certificate. Hope this helps.

 

[cenk57]

Other than the Country in which you are located, your microclimate will effect your vineyard immensely. My vineyard management plan here in coastal Virginia is much different than say just 50-75 miles west of my location which is in the mountains. So yes, it has been stressed that location is important. You may want contact your agriculture department/ministry. They could maybe help. We have several pests to deal with, so I do use chemicals on a schedule to get a somewhat reliable crop each year.

 

[balatonwine]

You may want contact your agriculture department/ministry.

I always recommend contacting the local Ag/U. extension for USA issues. They are great. They always helped me when I still lived there.

But I have lived in Central Europe for quite a while now. And such departments are.... IMHO... often simply an office wrapped around a rubber stamp. So if you vary from their forms, they may not get it.

Seriously. A real story: A local organic dairy farmer got a letter from the Agricultural Ministry. They wanted to know what chemicals he sprayed on his pastures. He wrote back, saying he was an organic farmer, and did not spray at all. They wrote back saying they understood he was organic, but still needed to know what chemicals he sprayed on his fields.....

Like I said... things are different here.

 

[VinesnBines]

Seriously. A real story: A local organic dairy farmer got a letter from the Agricultural Ministry. They wanted to know what chemicals he sprayed on his pastures. He wrote back, saying he was an organic farmer, and did not spray at all. They wrote back saying they understood he was organic, but still needed to know what chemicals he sprayed on his fields.....

Oh that sounds like the US Department of Agriculture. Really.

 

[balatonwine]

Oh that sounds like the US Department of Agriculture. Really.

I have worked with and actually for (was once an employee of) the USDA when I was still living in the USA. It is nothing like the USDA. For one things, the rules are there in the USA. (mostly) Clear. Published. Even if a clerk gets it wrong, you can take it to court and win based on the published rules. They may be complex, but they are the law. Even if you don't like the law, you may find the law burdensome, at least the law is there. You can fight the law if you wish.

Here, all is obfuscated, muddy, and nothing is clear. Mostly "word of mouth", "tradition" and "he said - he said" debates. In courts of law there is no such thing as "precedent" case law. Every judge can rule how they see fit. No rock to stand on. They do that, IMHO, to make you indebted to officialdom, as to get anything done, you have to "know a guy". There is a constant, unspoken expectation of "favors" to get things done. IYKWIM.

Like I said... things are different here.

 

[Dusan]

Here is my location. But there no one vineyard here. 30+ miles from there on shout we can found a lot of vineyards but climate is totally different, relay hot. On north no vineyards.

So at the end, I can let it and watch what will happened or spray with sulfur or that potassium bicarbonate (this second sounds better cenk57) or something else if I found but here no one organic vineyards and experience is low about that.

 

[Handy Andy]

I am a beginner to wine making, so I might be wrong

Potassium Bicarbonate might not be a good idea How to Treat Powdery Mildew Using Homemade and Organic Remedies. Its used as a preservative not to treat mildew.

What varieties of grapes are you growing, are they disease resistant?

One of my vineyards is Verdelho which is prone to downy mildew. I am considering changing this to another variety, although this year with the use of chemicals it is looking very healthy.

Methods of pruning the vines might help reduce mildew, ie I am also considering allowing my vines to grow taller, they have been pruned low to the ground in the past which may promote downy mildew by restricting the air flow.

I live in a marine environment, with high humidity all year round, mildew is a real problem, especially with Verdelho.

You live half way up a mountain, with a wide range of temperatures and presumably humidity depending on season. You will not have problems with mildew all year round! Are your vineyards exposed to high winds, when the vines should be flowering? or are they sheltered from high winds?

 

[balatonwine]

I am a beginner to wine making, so I might be wrong

Potassium Bicarbonate might not be a good idea How to Treat Powdery Mildew Using Homemade and Organic Remedies. Its used as a preservative not to treat mildew.

I forgive you, as a beginner. Because you are both right and wrong. Your link said that Sodium Bicarbonate should not be used. But Sodium Bicarbonate is not Potassium Bicarbonate. As even your own link described, they are different. Sodium Bicarbonate is the chemical used exclusively as preservative, and not as a fungicide. And it is also not Potassium Bicarbonate, which your link actually, and indeed said was a valid fungicide. So you are there wrong. Since I suggested Potassium Bicarbonate, not Sodium Bicarbonate.

But, you are also right, because as your link said, that even Potassium Bicarbonate for fungicide purposes is almost always sold as a product mix, not as the chemical only. Potassium Bicarbonate for spraying is sold as an approved compound mix. Armicarb, for example, is one such example available in some parts of Europe. And there are others. I simply mentioned the chemical alone, so I was not forced (till now) to mention any specific retail product. Hope this helps.

 

[balatonwine]

You live half way up a mountain, with a wide range of temperatures and presumably humidity depending on season. You will not have problems with mildew all year round! Are your vineyards exposed to high winds, when the vines should be flowering? or are they sheltered from high winds?

It is not that simple.

Yes, air flow and pruning methods can help. But... only to some extent in many areas. And results can vary. I do use both methods, but they are only part of a more holistic totality of vineyard integrated management.

Powdery mildew, for example, is not related much to humidity. That is why it is still an issue in dry California vineyards. Downy mildew is more humidity dependent. But there are many other pests than just those two. It is complicated.