What is time..

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I would also like to bring up the story of flatland...

Flatland was a plane of only two dimensions. Within flatland, there existed points. One day a sphere happened to come across flatland and befriended one of the points living there.

"I wonder what you look like" said the point to the sphere.
"tell you what I will do" said the sphere. "I will pass my body through flatland so that you can see me".

Over the time that the sphere past his body through the plane of flatland, this is what the point saw..

-, then ---, then -----, then ---, then -.

.. or a line that started small, then grew wider, then shrank.
The point did not quite grasp the true size and shape of a sphere. He only recognized the sphere as the ebb and flow of a line over time.

Perhaps this is the nature of time. Time is the only way to describe that which our brains can not easily comprehend. Our perception of the forth dimension is expressed as change of an interval of time, much the same way flatlanders perception of the third dimension is change over an interval of time.

Make you think that it is time to open another bottle....

johnT.
 
We need to stay off the "let's talk religion" path. Let us just assume that we are here regardless of the cause. (My Belated Birthday Present to Julie)


James brings up a great point.

Of all of our perceptions on that which is real (temperature or the weight of an object, for example), our perceptions seem to be much more constant that that of time. A heavy object always seems heavy, a hot cup of coffee always seems hot, but time is a different story ...

Remember how long it took for the end of the school-year to arrive or Christmas to arrive? How long is 5 minutes when you are listening to Rap as opposed to having an interesting conversation with a friend. The old saying "time flies when you are having fun" seems to be much more meaningful that one would expect.


This Idea of "time flies" really does lend credit to the idea that time is not real and is only a perception of the mind.

On the other hand, how could a person's rate of travel affect one's perception in a predictable manor?

Not sure I agree with you. Put one bare foot in a bucket of hot water and one bare foot in a bucket of cold water .. then stand on a tile floor. Is the floor cold or warm? It's the same temperature(or suck on an icecube and then drink a mouthful of hot coffee. then take some melting cheese and then drink that same coffee. Is the coffee hot or cold - it's the same temperature.. Our perceptions always interfere... and as for the perception of time. Think about this for a minute: when you were five years of age a day was about 1/1725 of your life. When you are 60 (James) a single day is now only 1/20,700 of your life. It would be surprising if 24 hours passing when you are 60 seemed to take as long to pass as when you were 5.
 
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after reading all the responses...i have wasted 22 minutes of time.
which i could have used making wine,making love, making dinner.
end of story.
its hard enough to make wine, let alone worrying about what time is..
time..is endless....i will die when its time.
what time is it...i will be on time, what time is dinner, is it time to leave.
what time did you go to bed, what time did you awake...
all of that does not matter, what matters is what you do with the time you have currently./
 
What is time

I think we need to THANK JohnT for posting the question!:db

I think the general "Chit Chat "also allows others to pick and choose at their moment in time to think new thoughts(POSSIBLY), Ideas, music, poetry, whatever, possibly forgotten until they view the thread. They now may well have an "AHA" moment

When I sit down with someone , I am not nearly as impressed by what they may know about one of their areas of expertise but how they can take the complexity of a subject expand its horizons based upon a new viewpoint that comes full circle and WITH THEIR SON, DAUGHTER OR GRANDCHILD ON THEIR LAP, SEE HOW THE CHILDS EYES BECOME ABLAZE WITH FASCINATION.AND WONDER!

And possibly and often, we have given birth to a new winemaker and a new generation of wine makers.
 
James,

My intent was not to have you walk away felling like you wasted your time. Sorry. This topic came up during a "quality control" meeting between me and my brothers. We found that after a little wine (just a little, mind you), this topic was rather interesting. I was hoping that the folks here might like to also partake in it.

BTW, What part of your winemaking process only takes 22 minutes? Whenever I do anything in winemaking, it always seems to take hours. :)



Barnard,

In your example, you are changing the reference of the test. If you keep the test constant, and not change the "vantage point", then the hot coffee will always be perceived the same. I do not believe that this is so true with time.


Corinth,

Thank you so much for the kind words. These are exactly my thoughts.
 
"Barnard,

In your example, you are changing the reference of the test. If you keep the test constant, and not change the "vantage point", then the hot coffee will always be perceived the same. I do not believe that this is so true with time."

Trouble is that you are also always changing the "vantage point" when you think about time. Ten minutes under a dentist's drill is not going to be perceived as brief a period of time as ten minutes snuggling with the love of your life. Remembering what an hour felt like yesterday is not going to be viewed from the same "vantage point" as experiencing this "same" 60 minutes right now..
 
My intent was not to have you walk away felling like you wasted your time.

You posted this in Chit-Chat and no one was forced to read it, no apologies needed. I find it interesting.
 
This Idea of "time flies" really does lend credit to the idea that time is not real and is only a perception of the mind.

Let's take that concept one step further...

Time is merely our perception of change. That is why we measure it based on how things change around us. Earth rotates, clocks tick, people age. If nothing changed, there would be no perception of time, or way to measure it.

In that case, there was no time before the Big Bang.

:sm
 
Let's take that concept one step further...

Time is merely our perception of change. That is why we measure it based on how things change around us. Earth rotates, clocks tick, people age. If nothing changed, there would be no perception of time, or way to measure it.

In that case, there was no time before the Big Bang.

:sm

My brother has a problem with the Big Bang because he cannot get his head around the idea that the universe itself was what came into existence and expanded in the Bang and not that the universe expanded into something that was already there. There was nothing - NOTHING - other than the super point of singularity. That infinitesimally tiny point was the entire universe and all matter and all space was essentially formed in that point.. and we are all dust from that Bang. We are, as the song said, we are all star dust.
 
The OP was, is there time? Some of the discussion dissembled into explorations of perceptions of time, its directionality, etc. There have been many great observations.

Entropy implies that there must be time, and this is not a perceived state but one common to all in the physical world. It's a natural and elastic state where something once "new" becomes "old" and in the process becomes more "disorganized." Now, quantum physics has proven that there is no such thing as true randomness - that all things have a pattern to them - but the fact of entropy infers time, even if entropy occurs as it does at different rates.

Of course, Einstein in e=mc2 inherently proves time, since the equation doesn't work without it. Even in quantum physics, also touched on in the discussion, time is inherent.

Take the simplest chemical reaction - without a time component, it simply would not occur. Or our wine. Without a time component, it would never age.

As far as the Big Bang, fairly recent research in physics has postulated that there exists in everything a very slight, tiny flaw favoring matter over antimatter. It's way out there in the 0.000000000 etc. realm, out to the thousands of zeroes, and the problem had proven intractable for 75 years until it was finally solved with the aid of supercomputers. It's theorized that this very very tiny imbalance in everything is what kicked off the Big Bang, although all the astrophysicists I have talked personally with here say no one can definitively say whether time started at that moment or not.

The "flaw" ever so slightly shifts the balance of the universe to matter, or else everything including us would not exist.

What intrigues me most about the current state of physics, as in the point above, is that it is proving more and more the musings of the mystics of the past. For example, American Indians have for 50,000 years believed that only the Creator is perfect and that all else is flawed or imperfect, to the point where they will purposefully put imperfections into their work to reflect that. Now the inherent flaw their mystics speak of is being proven mathematically.

The Bang itself was a rapid expansion of super-dense, super-heavy matter (and yes there's no adequate way in words to say it but it can be said in calculations, since matter came into being at that time), and we're sending up spacecraft all the time to measure the oldest portions of the remnants of that blast to get a handle on what happened. If there were not time, scientists would not be able to age those portions of the universe as opposed to others that are younger, and yet by their features researchers can do that.

Some of the discussion has involved religion or spirituality as it applies to time. My own take on it is that spiritualists and physicists both "talk to God," they just use different means. As an astrophysicist said to me, "My work makes me believe all the more in a Creator. For example, I can take iron ore and I can form it and melt it and make it into many shapes. But I cannot create that iron ore. Only God can do that."

As far as the universe and time, I have asked physicists to explain what the universe is. The best explanation; "I am not smart enough to know what it is, or if there is an 'inside' or 'outside' to it. I can say that a good analogy is a balloon that is being blown up. I am like an ant on that balloon, and I know that time is passing and the balloon is expanding because I know that it takes me longer to travel from one point on it to another than it did before. But I do not know the nature of that balloon. That's why we study the universe."

I thought that was very insightful. Then there are a whole bunch of other factors - like galactic baryons and the degree of their presence - that physicists are using to try to answer these complex and broad questions. See this article I wrote on baryon research: http://www.uah.edu/news/research/63...-universe-may-spawn-new-research#.UoVDj6WYVlI

Anyway, an interesting discussion to read and I hope I've added something to it with my ruminations. I'd like to leave off with this segment of an article I wrote about Voyager 1, the spacecraft that has now broken out of our heliosphere into interstellar space. The person quoted is Dr. Gary Zank, a University of Alabama in Huntsville heliophysicist, and there's an inherent time element involved.

Truthfully, by now the Voyager 1 spacecraft should be just another burnt out retiree, it's primary work done as of Nov. 20, 1980, floating away out in space somewhere.

But Voyager refuses to go quietly into that dark night. With most of its sensors still working, it utilizes computer power that's dwarfed by today's smartphones to send sometimes surprising data packets back to Earth *- first recording them on its ancient 8-track digital tape machines before assembling them and blasting them out at a staggering 23 watts for a trip that NASA says now begins in interstellar space.

Thing is, almost nobody on Earth is learning from the old codger, launched Sept. 5, 1977, during the "Saturday Night Fever" disco dancing era primarily to study the planets. For example, NASA's Dr. Fayock says funding is drying up for his Voyager work, and he is holding on to the hope that an upcoming UAH graduate student may see value in continuing it. Yet news from the geezer satellite keeps intriguing scientists. NASA expects it to send data through at least 2020, and its ability to power itself could last until 2025.

Taking a momentary break during a hectic day, CSPAR Director Dr. Zank indulges a visitor to his office by setting aside mounds of calculation-laden journal proofs he's reading and speaking about the impact of Voyager 1's amazing journey.

He paints a picture of a spacecraft constructed entirely of materials made by the sun, even put together by people made of stuff made by the sun. It's a package totally of solar origin that scientists with a great degree of certainty say has shed itself of its creator and now exists in a place where almost nothing around it is of solar creation or influence.

As the first human-made craft to achieve such a feat, it's an emissary that travels with its Golden Record - literally a gold phonograph record containing a wide assortment of information about Earth including a stylus and cartridge to play it - in an area where there's almost nothing that can harm it.

"So when the sun burns out a few billion years from now and Earth ceases to exist and humans are extinct, this craft could still be out there in orbit," Dr. Zank said, "where it will exist for billions more years."

He thinks it's important we learn from it as long as we can.
 
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I have never been a big fan of "mystical musings". But I understand entropy. Things must change (time must pass) in order for entropy to occur. Time is our reference for change. No perception, no reference, no time. It's like the tree falling in the woods. If no one is there, does it make a sound? The answer is 'no'.

I like Dr. Zank---I once knew wizard by that name. However, he implies that humans will not exist a few billion years from now, and Voyager will. He is probably right on the former. Humans will likely have evolved---through time---into something else entirely, who knows? And Voyager will only last until some klingon blasts it with a photon torpedo! :gb
 
I don't know about mystical musings but if all matter came from the big bang and if that means that all elements and material in the universe came from that near infinitely massive but infinitesimally tiny point and if life itself evolved from inorganic matter, then we are all connected, humans and rocks and water and stars and planets and grapes and cats and scorpions - all existence is really one... And so for me the Big Bang is what connects science to religious thought. Not because of the awe and wonder of what the Big Bang was all about but the awe and wonder of the idea that all of us and everything came from that point of origin. So Cheers! .:b
 
Dave,,Dave,,Dave,,,, Don't you watch the commercials???? Trees DO make noise even if there is no one there to hear it!! Simply by the laws of physics as to exactly what noise (sound) is.. And the fact that "VEEGER" is still drumming a beat over and above expectations could imply a Greater Hand in the nature of existence. "Our" BIG BANG occured in "our" little tiny spot of the universe and from it all of "our" knowledge to date has precipitated. Everything is relative and like our wines, to our own taste!!
 
Jim,

Thank you so much for your latest post! Very interesting take on all of it. So I do have a follow up question for you.

So let's just accept that the origin of the universe was a point of singularity, and that the universe is expanding much like a balloon.

If one was to be able to travel fast enough and far enough, would it be possible to reach a "border" between the universe and nothing? Can we travel to the point where time and entropy do not exist?

Before you answer, give me a minute to re-fill my glass :)
 
I don't know about mystical musings but if all matter came from the big bang and if that means that all elements and material in the universe came from that near infinitely massive but infinitesimally tiny point and if life itself evolved from inorganic matter, then we are all connected, humans and rocks and water and stars and planets and grapes and cats and scorpions - all existence is really one... And so for me the Big Bang is what connects science to religious thought. Not because of the awe and wonder of what the Big Bang was all about but the awe and wonder of the idea that all of us and everything came from that point of origin. So Cheers! .:b

Yes. YES! In the Lakota: Mitakuye oyasin. (We are all related.) There is a HUGE amount of true power when you identify with The One, and oh Bernard, you so eloquently just did.
 
Jim,

Thank you so much for your latest post! Very interesting take on all of it. So I do have a follow up question for you.

So let's just accept that the origin of the universe was a point of singularity, and that the universe is expanding much like a balloon.

If one was to be able to travel fast enough and far enough, would it be possible to reach a "border" between the universe and nothing? Can we travel to the point where time and entropy do not exist?

Before you answer, give me a minute to re-fill my glass :)

It's an easy answer. No one knows. I have posited the exact same question to physicists: What exists outside the universe? They say that's too simplistic an approach to viewing the matter. In quantum physics, if two particles can co-exist in the same time and the same state but be in two different places (and this has been done many times experimentally), then there is no boundary to be found.

Look at it another way: Black holes eat the matter universe and make it into denser material. Elsewhere, new stars and galaxies are being created. In essence, the universe is eating and digesting itself and recreating something new all the time, and it is also expanding. In this it is much like my belly. :D

Then when you take into account that what we can see is only 25 percent of the universe and the rest is dark matter, you see the problem. The entire system would like to achieve stasis, at which point it would not exist anymore - it would return to nothing - except that it can't because of this tiny tiny flaw that exists that favors matter over anti-matter. It's not settled science yet, but I believe that little flaw will eventually be found to drive all the processes on the traditional and quantum physics levels.

If so, that would be the Creator, the One, and so we would have found God by "praying" with calculations.

Now think of this: In a recycling universe, everything is reused. A molecule in your body right now could once have been the rust on a Viking's sword. Or part of a dinosaur's ear. All is recycled, remade. Everything natural is a circle and we are living as a very minute part of that circle. The math behind Pi says that in a circle there is no beginning or end. Look around. A tree has a circle. Spring, new leaves; summer setting seed; fall, dropping seed and leaves; winter, leaves change to soil; spring, soil nourishes tree. There's no "inside" or "outside" that circle for the tree, because it is the circle by its existence. The same with humans, who begin as a baby, advance through puberty, mature into adulthood, and then return in a natural lifecycle to a childlike and then babylike state, after which they die. No inside or outside, as that person IS the circle.
 
Jim,

Thank you so much for your latest post! Very interesting take on all of it. So I do have a follow up question for you.

So let's just accept that the origin of the universe was a point of singularity, and that the universe is expanding much like a balloon.

If one was to be able to travel fast enough and far enough, would it be possible to reach a "border" between the universe and nothing? Can we travel to the point where time and entropy do not exist?

Before you answer, give me a minute to re-fill my glass :)

Lemme give a shot. Unfortunately, I have to offer you TWO answers (which is not as good as having a single answer) because, as Jim says, this is not settled science. I should say this is not my area of expertise, but I have sat through many a colloquium on these topics, and picked up a little in the process. My understanding is probably garbled.

Answer 1:
Outside the outermost part of the universe, there truly is nothing. Not empty space; that is different. There IS no empty space, or anything else, outside of the universe. Now, if you were to travel to the outermost part of the universe, and then beyond, you would be creating new space. In the absence of any matter, space is simply not defined. As the universe expands, it is not expanding into space that was previously empty, it is creating a larger volume of space than existed before.

Answer 2:
There is some reason to believe that the universe is finite, but not bounded. The best way to try to understand this is to think about a lower dimensionality. Imagine you are an ant, crawling around on the surface of a balloon. If you walk in a straight line, you never come to "the end of the road." However, the surface of the balloon is not infinite: there is a finite amount of surface you can explore. You just keep walking and walking around the same surface.
There is some reason to believe the universe is like this, but (obviously) in 3+1 dimensions.

Edited to add: In response to a question about this last scenario, I would like to provide some clarification.

The analogy I presented is posed in a lower dimensional space than the one we live it. It would be if there were only two spatial dimensions, instead of three. The surface of the balloon represents the universe. (It is a surface, instead of a volume, because there are only 2 dimensions.) To be accurate, the ant should actually be a two-dimensional figure that is moving IN the surface of the balloon.
 
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What is time

A bit of History:
Monseigneur Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, (French: He was the first person to propose the theory of the expansion of the Universe, He was also very adamant about separating his religious background(Catholic Priest) out of it and let the Pope know it.
"Should a priest reject relativity because it contains no authoritative exposition on the doctrine of the Trinity? Once you realize that the Bible does not purport to be a textbook of science, the old controversy between religion and science vanishes . The doctrine of the Trinity is much more abstruse than anything in relativity or quantum mechanics; but, being necessary for salvation, the doctrine is stated in the Bible. If the theory of relativity had also been necessary for salvation, it would have been revealed to Saint Paul or to Moses . . . As a matter of fact neither Saint Paul nor Moses had the slightest idea of relativity"

Just a bit of info to think about, meditate on or have a glass of wine while doing neither!
 
What is time

I found out about him years before while watching" Nightline" and I believe they were talking with a Catholic Astrophysicist about some new discovery which concerned the Big Bang Theory and the Hubbell telescope.
As of a result of these postings, I went to a Catholic Website and read about Monsignor(Sir) Lemaître . The Pope was going to include his theory in a speech on creation and use Father Lemaître theory and Father Lemaître would have none of it. He pretty much demanded that it not be included. The Pope agreed and did not mention it in his speech. Pretty Gutsy on Father Lemaître part.
 
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