Vineyard From the Beginning- Grapeman

[GreginND]

I'm sure I won't be able to when I go on the chemo.

Depends on what the drugs are. Worth asking your oncologist about it. A healthy 4 oz a day of your Marquette would do wonders for physical and mental health.

 

[blumentopferde]

Hey grapeman!
Sorry for asking stupid questions, but it just came into my mind:

I noticed that you exclusively(?) plant hybrid varieties (as many users do here). This startles me as you seem to plant grapes in a commercial setting and not just for fun. In Europe (where I am from) these varieties are not being accepted, even though they have economic and ecologic advantages. No-one would ever drink a Léon Millot or a Marquette, you might use these grapes for blending in mass production at a sales price of about 1$/litre but not for serious wine making. As there are huge commercial vineyards in the US, that sell high quality wine made from traditional varieties at a cheap price, I wonder how you find a market for your wine! How do you compete with the supermarkets? Or is it different in the US? Do the new varieties have a wider acceptance there?

Apart from that: I'm terribly sorry for your diagnosis! Cancer seems to be the modern version of the plague to me... My parent generation came to an age where cancer is an issue and it is just horrible to see how many people who seemed perfectly healthy get struck by it! My father was lucky. He got away with a shorter colon. Others were less lucky, others still struggle. A friend of the family lives with the diagnosis since one year. That doesn't seem to be that much, but the doctors gave him 3 months - if he's lucky. Sounds depressing but it isn't at all, because it shows that If you have the will to live and the courage to fight, you can keep up with almost everything! So don't let this disease get you down, face it, fight it and get over it! I wish you courage and strength for this new chapter of life!

 

[GreginND]

I'm sure grapeman will chime in. But I think the bottom line is that vinifera cannot be grown in cold climates. The ability to compete with wines from other states is all about marketing the uniqueness of local product and creating a local tasting experience.

 

[vinividivici]

Geez, Rich, awfully sorry to hear of your cancer and upcoming battle.

My father-in-law had stomach cancer five years ago and had 3/4 of his stomach removed. He was then set up for chemo and radiation. After he got home, he scrubbed off the markings for the radiation therapy and refused to do both. He is now 82 and all checkups show no evidence of cancer.

I hope you have similar results and are seeing a top notch oncologist.

I had prostate cancer two years ago and fortunately didn't require the chemo regimen. So far, so good.

Wishing you the best, my friend...

Bob

 

[Louie1277]

Hi, I have to say I loved reading this thread ... showed me some good tips for the future and stuff. I myself have 21 plants on the side of the hill so yo could imagin how hard it must of been to keep it clean and put down the trellis...
My plants have been in for almost 3 years and have grow really high.

My question is what kind of fertilizer do you use or would be good for a hill that has Decomposed Granite dirt?

I am bookmarking this thread since good info is on here.

 

[grapeman]

I can't say what fertilizer you should use as each plot will be different. It would be best to get a soil sample done that will tell you what you have in it and what you should need. You could use a general purpose fertilizer, but it is easy to overdo it or underdo it withthe amount of fertilizer.

If you have enjoyed this thread, you might also like my other larger thread covering multiple years in the same vineyard.
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/champlain-valley-my-vineyard-19820/

 

[saddlebronze]

Rich, sorry about your diagnosis. I will pray for your well being. I am 2 years out from my cancer so I am there for ya.

 

[galen1]

Great thread! Great pictures and step by step information. I'll be following it.

 

[BobR]

Next up I have to callous the cuttings. I put them in some sort of
container and fill with a few inches of moist soil mix. I place that on a heat mat to provide
constant heat to the bottom and place it in a cool room. You want the heat to form the callous but
not enough heat in the room to break dormancy too quickly. 80 degrees on the bottom and about
55-60 on top is good. I sometimes use a grape lug as it works well for a couple hundred at a
time.
Here is a heat mat and the grape lug with cuttings in it. Note here they are 2 bud cuttings since
that is what I will be using.

Rich,
I am wanting to know if it would it be possible to successfully get some cuttings to root using only what I have on hand. I have peat moss, various sizes of plantable fiber/peat pots and a couple of small heat mats. I want to start about 50 clippings, so this will not be a big operation like what you used to, but in the past, I have not had much luck. I the past, I never had a heat mat and would just stick the cutting into peat moss in the pots and hope for the best. I also have some of the plastic plant trays, along with a 4 tier mini green house. Can I place the cuttings in peat moss, in the peat pots and place them on the heat mat? The plastic plant trays are only 2 1/2 to 3 inches deep. With that, in your opinion, would it be better to fill the tray with peat moss, put my cuttings in and then place the tray on the heat mat? Also, it seems that the heat mat dries the soil out rather quickly, do you keep the soil moist all the time? Last year, I put around 110 cuttings
just in the pots and ended up with maybe 25 plants. Since my source is drying up, I'd like to try for a better success rate this year. I would appreciate any help/suggestions that you can give.

 

[grapeman]

The key to better sucess is the heat mats. You can put the cuttings in whatever you want, peat pots, flats or whatever. Place those on the heat mat and keep MOIST NOT WET for 2-3 weeks. You will see cancerous looking growth on the edge of the cuttings (bottom). Those are the callouses and when you get those, you will get roots. Another IMPORTANT thing is to make the bottom cut just below a bud say 1/4" or less. That damages the cambium slightly and that gives rise to callouses sooner. Good luck.

 

[BobR]

Thanks Rich!
Does standing the cuttings in water over night do anything to help?

Here are a couple of photos from last spring and even though a lot of the cuttings leafed out, they did not stay alive very long. Also, do you know what that grape like cluster is that is on the leafed out cuttings. A lot of them would shoot a long stem out and then sprout this little cluster. I didn't know what to do with them, so I cut them off.
Thanks Again!

 

[grapeman]

What you experienced with them leafing out and then dying was because they weren't calloused. If they were, they would form roots and that would keep the top growth alive. That is the reason you try to keep the top cool while callousing. It is better to callous them before letting the new growth begin.

The little grape things are the embryonic flowers pushing. It is imperative that they be removed but I usually wait until I can easil tell what part is the flower cluster and what would be a new shoot to leave.

 

[BobR]

Thanks Rich! I think that you just told me where I have been making a BIG mistake when planting the cuttings. I would always put them into the peat pots and then place them on the four shelves of my "greenhouse." I would then put the plastic cover over it and it would sit in front of the patio doors to catch as much sun as possible. Under that plastic, it would get hot and humid and I thought that this was good for them. Now I know that the tops where far from being kept cool.

 

[skyrat]

Grapeman, Just read through the entire thread. Awesome info / posting. Thanks....Hope the future finds/keeps you well.

I too am propagating my own vines in preparation for a vineyard. Last year we obtained 17+ acres vacant farmland in The Mohawk Valley Region of NY. 5-6 acres will be 1/2 vineyard 1/2 berry crop. All for making wine. Long range retirement plan of operating a Farm Winery. In 2-3 years I should have propagated all the berry plants I will need. 4-5 should show sufficient grape vine numbers.

I have been experimenting using a different (very easy) technique that might be helpful to members depending on their space & time. It involves a little less maintenance work. Initially there is some prep work as a propagation bed must be made. One drawback is it delays a viable/healthy/transplant-able vine by a year. The plus side is the vine generates itself in the climate it will be living its life in.

POST spring pruning (BEFORE BUD SWELL) of the "parent" vines my trimmings are (re)frozen precut to the desired length and packed in moist media such as shredded newspaper. I maintain the 3-4 budd rule as I place 2 buds under ground when I plant. They remain frozen until the ground temperature reaches 75 deg. and will maintain that temp overnight.

As has been highlighted callousing is a key to a healthy vine start. Once the soil temp is right they are removed from the freezer & / placed in a warm spot & the callous will begin to form. I keep the "sticks" in the media so they do not dry out and allow the buds to begin to swell.
Planting time...I then Dip in Rooting hormone and stick in holes 2 budds deep in my propagation bed.

I had about 75-80% survival rate over the summer on several varieties with 1-2 feet vine growth. Catawba / Cayuga / St Croix / Traminette. All just sticks planted in the ground. Other varieties as well but not sure if they will work out. I will post overwintering survival rates once spring wakes my babies up.

Also experimenting as to which type of propagation bed has better winter survival rates. One bed is a well prepared garden soil plot. 2nd bed is a raised bed 1/2 sand / 1/2 garden soil mix which showed excellent root development when samples were dug and also allows for earlier "stick planting".

Kinda got long winded I guess. Hope this helps some folks out.

 

[grapeman]

skyrat the methods you speak about are the way I used to do it and actually makes a lot more work in the end/ Where the method I show eliminates much work for establishing the vineyard, the nursery route is a good solid method but involves more work in 95% of the operations. The nursery method grows healthy vines, but all the work is basically hand done. A big part of that is weed control for a whole year and when you grow thousands of vines is very labor intensive. Another big item is the hand digging up of those thousands of vines.
Here is one bed with a few hundred vines

And here is another one with thousands

And some in plant bands to be planted in the nursery for a year

Calloused regular cuttings

And for those who want to read a whole thread of a vineyard from beginning with a few dozen vines to a small commercial vineyard
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/champlain-valley-my-vineyard-19820/

 

[grapeman]

Here is a shot a few weeks later

 

[skyrat]

Grapeman, Don't get me wrong. Your method is excellent for propagating a "bunch" of vines. I may even explore using your method as I was quite impressed with your results. I agree that later dig ups will involve more work at transplanting time but I have access to the equipment to make it less labor intensive.

I am merely trying to point out to the new (casual / small qty) grower that in very little space (of say a garden plot) they could propagate their own vines without the use of a greenhouse which may be cost or space prohibitive.

Quick question that I did not see /may have missed in the threads. Did you use a misting system in your greenhouse setup?

Also mentioned in the thread.....Japanese Beetles. Just wondering if you have explored Milky Spore usage. I have had excellent results and the beauty is that one treatment should last up to 20 years.

 

[grapeman]

skyrat this thread is merely giving those interested in it an alternative method for starting vines I am documenting as I go along. I have done things your way many times and there is nothing wrong with it. Things are not ever set in stone with grape growing nor winemaking. I never intend to tell anyone that this way is the best. I merely throw it out there for anyone that finds it interesting.
As far as milky spore it is impractical in my application because of the acreage involved. We are in a rural setting and it would be very impractival to innoculate the whole area for it to be effective.

 

[skyrat]

Still one question for you if you please.. Do you use a misting system in your greenhouse?

 

[grapeman]

skyrat no I do not use a misting system. Since these are hardwood cuttings, misting is not needed. Just keep the soil somewhat moist.