Other Tweeking Cheap Kits

[hawkwing]

Following advice from Joeswine and a bit of experimenting, I've been adding black grocery store grapes (about 1 lb. per 5 gal batch) with most but not all of the juice pressed out to those "60-bottle" Costco kits for the past 18 months with very satisfactory results.
I shorten the water to make 50 bottles instead of 60 and leave black grape skins on the reds throughout the fermentation cycle and as long as 14 days, punching the skins down daily. I bought a Speidel fermenter with a wide mouth for this specific purpose. Also, don't forget to soak the grapes first in a K-Meta solution to get rid of the nasties.
I found that the long, finger-like black grapes are best to my taste and, if you can get them, the ones with seeds. I include a fair bit of the stems because from what I've read seeds and stems add tannin. I tried adding tannin directly but did not like the results as much.
The larger Asian markets tend to get table grapes with seeds on occasion. I used to use dried grape skins from winemaking stores or on Amazon for similar results but the price has gone from $12 a packet to $25 — ridiculous considering left over grape skins known as pomace is a costly waste problem for commercial winemakers.
BTW — I'm buying a bucket of wine grape must to make a batch of wine and freezing the skins I can salvage to add to my kit wines. I'll report back on the results.
I then bulk age the reds with a cup of American oak per 19 litre carboy, topping up and adding 1/4 tsp K-Meta every three months.
The results are excellent — not top wine kit excellent but a fantastic every day drinking wine that matches any Merlot, Cab, or Pino Noir I can buy at the LCBO (Ontario liquor store) for $15 Cnd or less. I even have a challenge with friends and neighbours to bring a $15 or less bottle to match against my Costco concoctions and all of them, wine snobs included, have given my bottles thumbs up.
I've also been adding white grocery grape skins to my Costco whites (again shorten water) to create what the industry calls skin touch or amber whites. I found five days on the skins work best with the Costco Chateau Argentia Chardonnay and again bulk aged on oak. The Master Cellar Sauvignon Blanc is okay – an improvement over following the instructions precisely – but just okay. As for the Argentia Gewurtztraminer — absolutely not. Just follow the instructions except shorten the water as noted above.

I will have to see what kind of black grapes I can get this time of year if any. The long finger grapes they have at Halloween and call them Halloween grapes I think. Usually I see green and red seedless grapes. But I’ll have to check the stores.

 

[joeswine]

glad you're happy with the results so far, Thompson seedless grapes are also very good to use and are readily available in most markets.

 

[MHSKIBUM]

I will have to see what kind of black grapes I can get this time of year if any. The long finger grapes they have at Halloween and call them Halloween grapes I think. Usually I see green and red seedless grapes. But I’ll have to check the stores.

Don't know about the U.S. but here in Canada table grape prices swing wildly in the winter. I plan to buy several pounds when prices are low, rinse them in a K-meta solution, and then freeze them in 1-2 lb. bags.
You can buy frozen grape must for winemaking. I don't see why I can't do the same with table grapes or table grape skins.

 

[joeswine]

Yes you can what I do is sauté them down then vacuum seal them much better way.

 

[MHSKIBUM]

Yes you can what I do is sauté them down then vacuum seal them much better way.

Is that how those wine kits get that grape skin jam?

 

[MHSKIBUM]

Can I "saute" the grapes in an instant pot and drain off some of the juice to get a jam and skins the consistency of the grape skin packs in an RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan?

 

[joeswine]

Is that how those wine kits get that grape skin jam?

Yes one way. For us we take 2 cups of white wine any kind and 16 ozs.or so of grapes sauté than down till there soft and pliable , let them cool and vacuum seal. Done my way.

 

[hawkwing]

Can you reuse wine skins? Just wondering if I could save some skins if I get wine grapes come fall. Of course they’d be fermented once.

 

[joeswine]

I would never do that , my reasoning is this and it’s just mine .
The first time you used them the alcohol you just created extension for the skins and seeds is completed there’s really nothing left but dead debris ( think about it).
If most of it wasn’t already.
I have used all kinds of grape seed packs from stem my to mushy that all have one job to do and when that jobs over there done.
Time in use and bacteria-has taken its toll , time to move on .
Think about this , once a winery has soaked it’s skins and there is no longer any use for them a winery usually recycle them in to the soils.
Just my thoughts I can be wrong.

 

[winemaker81]

Can you reuse wine skins? Just wondering if I could save some skins if I get wine grapes come fall. Of course they’d be fermented once.

The short answer is "yes". However, you may or may not get any benefit from re-use.

Second run wines are made from the pomace of grape wines -- the general formula is for every 2 gallons of 1st run wine, add 1 gallon water, 2 lbs sugar, plus acid, tannin, etc. The 2nd run can be a good wine, although lower in body, color, and flavor than the 1st run. This is dependent on how hard the 1st run pomace was pressed, as the more it was pressed, the less "stuff" is left in the pomace for the 2nd run. Keep in mind that this uses double the pomace to produce a lesser wine. IMO it's worth the effort, but it's important to realize it's not a 1st run wine.

If you do EM with skin packs, there will be less "stuff" left.

In a semi-related experiment, I used 6 oz oak cubes in 54 liters (14.25 US gallons) wine for 3 months. Removed the cubes, dried them, and sulfited before my son used all 6 oz in a 23 liter batch (normal is 1.5 to 2 oz). After 3 months we tested it, and there was oak flavoring, but our subjective tasting was that it was about half of what we'd expect from 2 oz fresh cubes. 3 times as much got half the result, so our reasoning was the cubes had about 1/6 goodness left in them. It was a good experiment, but we'd not bother re-using cubes again.

I wouldn't bother trying to re-use a skin pack, as what I'd get from it may not be worth the effort. IF I did try it, I'd drain the packs after the first use and immediately freeze. Before use, defrost in room temperature water in a sink (I assume the skins are in a plastic bag) and add to the must when mostly defrosted. If you try this, post your results.

 

[hawkwing]

I was just thinking that in Italy they use the spent skins to make grappa.

I can’t see them harming a wine kit. They might not add much or need more to get the desired effect. I will be composting them either way so I can’t see much of a risk to trying it.

 

[MHSKIBUM]

I tried reusing skins but realized there was nothing left when I tasted a little piece. I did the same with raisins and though they were still plump the taste was something like soggy mushy styrofoam. In other words no flavour, no sweetness, zip.

 

[winemaker81]

I was just thinking that in Italy they use the spent skins to make grappa.

True, but grappa is a totally different product that doesn't make use of the grape aroma or flavor.

I can’t see them harming a wine kit. They might not add much or need more to get the desired effect. I will be composting them either way so I can’t see much of a risk to trying it.

If you use a good process, as I mentioned above, I don't foresee any significant risk.

 

[joeswine]

I was just thinking that in Italy they use the spent skins to make grappa.

I can’t see them harming a wine kit. They might not add much or need more to get the desired effect. I will be composting them either way so I can’t see much of a risk to trying it.

different story

 

[joeswine]

I tried reusing skins but realized there was nothing left when I tasted a little piece. I did the same with raisins and though they were still plump the taste was something like soggy mushy styrofoam. In other words no flavour, no sweetness, zip.

that's correct the Essent's is drawn out o them.

 

[Johnd]

Can you reuse wine skins? Just wondering if I could save some skins if I get wine grapes come fall. Of course they’d be fermented once.

Absolutely!! Especially if you d ont press very hard. When I was making both kits and wine from grapes, I’d save the skin/seed/pulp discs just like they come out of the press and freeze them. The grapes I use are pretty ripe and tannic, so extraction had to be controlled, including light pressing, which leaves even more benefit behind. Using those leftovers in a kit made all the differ3nce in the world, giving back to the kit that which it didn’t have and needed desperately, body, flavor, aromatics, these are still the superior wine from kits I’ve ever made. Try it!!!

 

[joeswine]

The difference is I try to enhance the wine with fresh ingredients not something left over and bitter .
You see that’s wine making everyone has a different concept of how to and that’s a good thing never , ever think that thinking outside the box is in correct it’s a subjective in its self.
Over 485k views thanks
Thanks for you input johnd and everyone else.

 

[Khristyjeff]

Found this interesting from Walmart online selling Fontana Cheap Kits. So @joeswine , they expect us to tweak their wine kits!

 

[sour_grapes]

Found this interesting from Walmart online selling Fontana Cheap Kits. So @joeswine , they expect us to tweak their wine kits!
View attachment 86382

So, I guess we are "Thinking inside the box"?

 

[joeswine]

Found this interesting from Walmart online selling Fontana Cheap Kits. So @joeswine , they expect us to tweak their wine kits!
View attachment 86382

No they expect you to make as is we need to
Make it better because we ca , yes