The best hybrid variety for winemaking?

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blumentopferde

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Hello!

I would like to know which hybrid variety you think delivers the best taste. I've been trying really a lot of different wines made from european hybrid varieties so far (I'm from Europe and you won't find american breedings there) and none of them could compete with a well-done wine made from viniferas...

But as I have a small vineyard and powdery mildew gives me a hard time each year, I don't want to give up on them! But still I'm not so much interested in whether it will actually grow in my vineyard - I'm more interested in them as a wine-drinker, who wants to explore new varieties.

So what do you think, is there any hybrid-variety that could compete with a well-done classic vinifera, such as Riesling or Pinot Noir, taste-wise? Or do they all have a "different" taste (which I think is actually a transcription for "awkward" :p )?
 
Please do a search, there a lot of threads on cold hardy hybrids and which ones are turning out fantastic wines these days
 
http://www.doubleavineyards.com/t-factsheets.aspx

The two red varieties getting the most aclaim recently are carrot noir and noiret , both exhibit good tannin and no hybrid foxiness.

I've made noiret and was very happy with its vinifera like character. I much prefer it to norton and chambouchin

For whites traminette and Vidal produce excellent vinifera character
 
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http://www.doubleavineyards.com/t-factsheets.aspx

The two red varieties getting the most aclaim recently are carrot noir and noiret , both exhibit good tannin and no hybrid foxiness.

I've made noiret and was very happy with its vinifera like character. I much prefer it to norton and chambouchin

For whites traminette and Vidal produce excellent vinifera character

Thanks for the hints!
Especially Traminette seems interesting to me (The region wehere I have my vineyard is excellent for Gewurztraminer)!
Now I'll just have to find a few wines or vines, to get a picture of it ;D
 
I really agree with the Vidal,also. That is one NICE white wine.
 
I won't claim the most discerning taste buds, but I have been having an easy time making very good wine from Cayuga White. Conversely, I think it will take another year or two in order to figure out Marachel Foch.
 
Marquette and petite pearl for reds. Brianna, Frontenac blanc and lacrescent for whites.
 
There are a lot of commercial winemakers in the Midwest growing Seyval Blanc, Traminette, Vidal Blanc, Marquette, Chamborcin, and Regant. I've had wine from all of these grapes and they can be quite good.
 
Why not have your soil make the call? Have it tested and seek a recomendation on what will grow best in it.

I'm still waiting for the results... But I can still say that it is a very heavy soil with a very high clay conent (~50%), a high iron content (the soil is red!) and no lime content at all!

There are a lot of commercial winemakers in the Midwest growing Seyval Blanc, Traminette, Vidal Blanc, Marquette, Chamborcin, and Regant. I've had wine from all of these grapes and they can be quite good.
I've tried Regent several times and I always found it horrible. It's tannins are definitely to bold and coarse for me. How about the other suggested reds (Corot Noir, Noiret, Marquette, Petite Pearl etc. - why do actually all the new american hybrids have french names?!) are they similar to regent or a bit "softer"?
 
blumentopferde said:
I'm still waiting for the results... But I can still say that it is a very heavy soil with a very high clay conent (~50%), a high iron content (the soil is red!) and no lime content at all!

I've tried Regent several times and I always found it horrible. It's tannins are definitely to bold and coarse for me. How about the other suggested reds (Corot Noir, Noiret, Marquette, Petite Pearl etc. - why do actually all the new american hybrids have french names?!) are they similar to regent or a bit "softer"?

I think you either had a poorly made Regent or your going to have trouble with red wines in general. Regent does have nice, significant tannins compared to most hybrids, but not like a. Cab or a Syrah. I'm guessing the Regent grapes were unripe and the tannins were not substantial but harsh and green. Try a well made bottle from Hollywood Hills.

Also, if you have a harsh vintage of grapes, or want to make a soft red, such as a Pinot, you could do a delestage by racking or by using an aquarium pump. Read up on it if you want super light tannins.


That being said, if it's still too much, try Corot Noir or Marquette. Both have very little tannins, if fully, fully+ ripe.. I think Marquette will still give you enough tannin structure to back up the fruit flavors- try a bottle of cold-climate Pinot like Puget Sound, if you can't find Marquette, although its a fairly accessible red.

I'm planting Marquette and Brianna next week along with some Zinfandel and Cab Sauv.
 
I'm curious about Chambourcin, as I think it grows fairly well around here. Anyone know of a good commercial one?
 
I'm curious about chambourcin as well. I plan to plant a few grapes next spring & it seems it's suitable for the area. It's pretty much at the top of my list right now, but I haven't found much about the wine it produces or the characteristics to expect from actual growers of chambourcin.
 
I think you either had a poorly made Regent or your going to have trouble with red wines in general. Regent does have nice, significant tannins compared to most hybrids, but not like a. Cab or a Syrah. I'm guessing the Regent grapes were unripe and the tannins were not substantial but harsh and green. Try a well made bottle from Hollywood Hills.

Also, if you have a harsh vintage of grapes, or want to make a soft red, such as a Pinot, you could do a delestage by racking or by using an aquarium pump. Read up on it if you want super light tannins.


That being said, if it's still too much, try Corot Noir or Marquette. Both have very little tannins, if fully, fully+ ripe.. I think Marquette will still give you enough tannin structure to back up the fruit flavors- try a bottle of cold-climate Pinot like Puget Sound, if you can't find Marquette, although its a fairly accessible red.

I'm planting Marquette and Brianna next week along with some Zinfandel and Cab Sauv.

Well, I am from Europe so it will be pretty hard for me to find ANY american cold-climate-wine! Still I'm interested in them as european hybrids (such as Regent) didn't convince me.

I've tried 3 different German Regent wines and I'm pretty sure that none of these wines lacked ripeness (Regent ripes very early!). Also the wines had low acidity levels and the tannins didn't have the typical "green" tastes you would expect from an unripe wine. Still the wines had a somewhat leathery and sometimes vegetal taste, that reminded of beetroot :<

I'll definitely try to get hold of some american hybrids, that's one of my projects for the future (besides getting some Pinotage vines which is also almost impossible to find in Europe). I have no hurry with this, so I have plenty of time for research ;)

Thank you for the tip about the delestage! Never heard about that before!
 
Good luck in your hybrid tasting journey. Just keep in mind I think there are as many different wines from one grape as there are different varieties to try. Do not judge a variety based on just a few examples. I've had terrible hybrid wines and I've had the same grape produce absolute gems with the right hands guiding it. In my opinion we still do not know all there is to know about what these GRAPES want to be. We often tend to force hybrids into classic vinifera wine styles and that may not always be best. The important thing is to leave your mind open and taste as many as possible.
 
If your European, it'll take 5+ years to import American varieties to the EU. Not worth the effort of the expense.

Regent is attractive though because it gives you, as a winemaker, enough to work with and still make a structured dry red wine. With many hybrids, there's no tannins, minimal Brix levels, and low-medium color extraction. Regent gives you plenty of resources due to all the vinifera heritage, you as a winemaker need to tone it down and adjust it to your liking. I would blame poorly made Regents on the winemaker, not the grapes or even your palate. You just need to know some tricks to minimize tannins.

There are European growers who grow Chambourcin, which is a nice, if not spectacular cold hardy grape you could try growing. I've also heard some really good things about Leon Millot, but I'm afraid it's too warm to grow here. I'm right on the line between hybrids and Bordeaux vinifera, so its tough. I think there is some Landot Noir in Europe, but not 100% sure about that. I'm sure Rick will chime in with some details on these varietals.

Marechal Foch isn't half bad, either.


With whites, you have more options. Seyval blanc or vidal blanc are both nice. Edelweiss can be tough but built for northern Europe. Of course, Riesling is an absolute killer in cold climates, a must have. Finally, depending on how temperate you are, you could make a nice sauvignon blanc, which has taken off in cool climate areas like New Zealand.


The problem is there aren't much European hybrids, and the ones out there, probably either produce crappy fruit in the hybridization rush in the late 19th century or are as tricky to grow as vinifera- minus the root louse garbage...

I personally say, if you have enough growing days in a season, buy some good, grafted Pinots of a cooler-climate clone, and some Riesling vines, and go for it. I think that's the best chance you have.
 
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Hybrids are banned in France and some other eu countries for commercial production and there are import restrictions against them in some places so interspecific hybrids might be challenging to find.

I'd try to find some of the Austrian German and Swiss bread early ripening vinifera varieties , these are pure vinifera crosses but bread for colder climates.

Not sure where in Europe you are but zweigelt (zweigelterebbe) which is a pure vinifera cross between blaufrankische and st Laurent is a good bet for easy to ripen red . It's Austria's most planted red. It buds late to avoid frost and ripens early . And it makes a nice northern Rhone style red.
Austrian nurseries might be a good place to start .
http://www.austrianwine.com/our-wine/grape-varieties/

Pinot noir precoce or Fruhburgunder is an early ripening Pinot noir variety grown in England Canada Austria Switzerland and Germany .

Baccus and Ortega are early ripening reisling crosses that are commonly grown in England Germany and Vancouver island and they make great white wine that I can't tell from reisling.

Switzerland makes some very nice wine from chasselas (fendent) , petite arvine is their best white .

The easiest to ripen pure vinifera white is seigerebbe , it's very aromatic and ripens in August in England , let it hang till the end of September and it can hit 30 brix great for a dessert wine.

Muller Thurgau is also widely grown , it's easy to grow but not that flavour full so is usually blended with 10-20 percent seigerebbe .

All of these are pure vinifera clones easy to ripen and available in Europe .

Where in Europe are you? It might help give you advice on what to plant.
 
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Inter species hybrids require man influance to cross breed , it won't happen spontaneously like vinifera to vinifera crosses , the most well known spontaneous child being Cabernet Sauvignon .

Doc /aoc / Ava rules don't allow non vinifera grapes , it's a quality thing . Inter specific hybrids just aren't as good for winemaking as vinifera grown in an appropriate location or terroir. Hybrids are getting better every year but vinifera is still the high water mark.

There are many North American Ava that also don't allow hybrids in Ava labeled wines.
 
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If your European, it'll take 5+ years to import American varieties to the EU. Not worth the effort of the expense.

Regent is attractive though because it gives you, as a winemaker, enough to work with and still make a structured dry red wine. With many hybrids, there's no tannins, minimal Brix levels, and low-medium color extraction. Regent gives you plenty of resources due to all the vinifera heritage, you as a winemaker need to tone it down and adjust it to your liking. I would blame poorly made Regents on the winemaker, not the grapes or even your palate. You just need to know some tricks to minimize tannins.

There are European growers who grow Chambourcin, which is a nice, if not spectacular cold hardy grape you could try growing. I've also heard some really good things about Leon Millot, but I'm afraid it's too warm to grow here. I'm right on the line between hybrids and Bordeaux vinifera, so its tough. I think there is some Landot Noir in Europe, but not 100% sure about that. I'm sure Rick will chime in with some details on these varietals.

Marechal Foch isn't half bad, either.


With whites, you have more options. Seyval blanc or vidal blanc are both nice. Edelweiss can be tough but built for northern Europe. Of course, Riesling is an absolute killer in cold climates, a must have. Finally, depending on how temperate you are, you could make a nice sauvignon blanc, which has taken off in cool climate areas like New Zealand.


The problem is there aren't much European hybrids, and the ones out there, probably either produce crappy fruit in the hybridization rush in the late 19th century or are as tricky to grow as vinifera- minus the root louse garbage...

I personally say, if you have enough growing days in a season, buy some good, grafted Pinots of a cooler-climate clone, and some Riesling vines, and go for it. I think that's the best chance you have.

Thanks for this informative reply!
I'm not that much interested in cold hardiness, rather in disease hardiness, as the climate in my region is really humid and fungal diseases give me a hard time. I do have some Pinot Noirs, they are in their 1st year, so I can't say much about them, but from what I've heard they're really tricky to grow and tend to lots of diseases.

What I'm searching for, is a variety that makes great wine and still doesn't need my attention all the time - That can be left alone for a few weeks without dying (I did that last year: Left my vines alone for 2 weeks without spraying, they all lost their leaves completely from powdery mildew).

Don't remind me of Marechall Foch :p. I really had some bad experiences with that (reminded me of vegetable juice :<) But it really seems that european winemakers don't have a clue how to handle the hybrid grapes!

I've already thought about Chambourcin, but I never had the chance to try one, so I'm not quite sure, what awaits me there.

But there's a new Austrian hybrid that I'd like to try: Rathay. It is very unpopular amongst the Austrian winemakers and even in Austria it is hard to find, but I have had 2 wines made from it and both of them were good, which is exceptional, compared to the rest of my hybrid-experiences.

Of course I wouldn't import american hybrids "officially". That wouldn't be worth the effort, and I would never ever get the permission to use them commercially. I would rather have a a trip to the USA one day, put a few cuttings in my pocket, bring them back home and plant them in my garden. As long as it isn't Marihuana or something there is no restriction to what I'm allowed to grow in my garden. But if it comes to commercial production European laws get VERY restrictive.

I'm not so sure about the "more options" with whites. I never had a hybrid white that was really bad, but in the end they all tasted the same: Neutral, acidic, a bit like sparkling wine without sparks, with no distinctive aromas, that would last in my memory. I've never tried Seyval Blanc, Vidal Blanc and Edelweiss though. It is very hard to find wine made from hybrid grapes in Europe!

Hybrids are banned in France and some other eu countries for commercial production and there are import restrictions against them in some places so interspecific hybrids might be challenging to find.

I'd try to find some of the Austrian German and Swiss bread early ripening vinifera varieties , these are pure vinifera crosses but bread for colder climates.

Not sure where in Europe you are but zweigelt (zweigelterebbe) which is a pure vinifera cross between blaufrankische and st Laurent is a good bet for easy to ripen red . It's Austria's most planted red. It buds late to avoid frost and ripens early . And it makes a nice northern Rhone style red.
Austrian nurseries might be a good place to start .
http://www.austrianwine.com/our-wine/grape-varieties/

Pinot noir precoce or Fruhburgunder is an early ripening Pinot noir variety grown in England Canada Austria Switzerland and Germany .

Baccus and Ortega are early ripening reisling crosses that are commonly grown in England Germany and Vancouver island and they make great white wine that I can't tell from reisling.

Switzerland makes some very nice wine from chasselas (fendent) , petite arvine is their best white .

The easiest to ripen pure vinifera white is seigerebbe , it's very aromatic and ripens in August in England , let it hang till the end of September and it can hit 30 brix great for a dessert wine.

Muller Thurgau is also widely grown , it's easy to grow but not that flavour full so is usually blended with 10-20 percent seigerebbe .

All of these are pure vinifera clones easy to ripen and available in Europe .

Where in Europe are you? It might help give you advice on what to plant.

Thanks for the hints! As mentioned before: I am more interested in disease hardiness than in cold hardiness. The winter temperatures can go low where I live but never ever down to american winters!
I live in Austria (What a coincidence!) and of course I do know Zweigelt. I don't appreciate it much though, for several reasons:
As you already said: First, it's the most planted red. You will find it everywhere, in every supermarket, on every wine list, and I just grew tired of it. Second: I don't live in the best area for Zweigelt. It delivers really good qualities in the north-east of the country, but I've never had a good Zweigelt from my region!
Bacchus, Ortega and Siegerrebe might be too early for my region. The region is good for Gewurztraminer, Pinot Blanc and Welschriesling (local white variety). Sauvignon Blanc should also do well here - climate-wise, but not soil-wise (The soil is very heavy, very clayey and contains no limestone at all)!
 

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