Mosti Mondiale Starting #4

[jnmar]

The wife and I drove over to eat dinner with my daughter and G'children in North Dallas the day before yesterday but not without first stopping by to see Joseph at the Toy Store. I picked up a few items, test kits, etc. and more importantly a MM Renaissance Pinot Noir kit.

My previous two kits I did some tweaking on both. I'm not all that happy with the development of the aromas. Though one, a blush zen is only 6 weeks along and got an unintentional and unexpected extra heavy dose of K-Meta. The other a MM Renaissance Merlot that I added stewed banana juice and stewed frozen blackberries to is only 10 days along. I know they will improve with age and I do plan on bulk aging both with a lot more time after bottling. I'm so new at this I just don't know what I should be expecting.

I've been very meticulous about sanitizing everything that touches the wine every time I do anything to it. I was also very careful about keeping fermentation temps in the mid 70's on both. So I don't think I've done anything to cause off flavors or off aromas...except for the K-Meta screw up. Outside of the K=Meta which I finally got corrected the day before yesterday by "Splash Pouring" 4 times from one primary to another (I finally got the free SO2 down from +90 ppm to a more reasonable 34 ppm) there was some kind of smell that just didn't seem right. I really can't put a word to it. Could be the yeast maybe but it's certainly not the smell of the bread baking kind. Other than tasting like green wine I don't notice a taste that goes along with the smell. Oh well, time will tell.

I've decided, on this Pinot Noir kit, to follow the directions as closely as possible with the exceptions of trying to avoid the much dreaded wine volcano by adding the nutrient in the primary, racking to another primary to oxygenate and then the oak chips a day or two later when racked off to carboy. Also, I will bulk age and delay bottling as recommended by most here. I'm anxious to follow this one along closely for several reasons but mainly so I can have sort of a standard by which to judge the progress of those who will follow.

 

[Bartman]

In response, I have a short riddle that might, hopefully, provide a little insight for the newer winemakers out there:

If you have it, you don't notice it or appreciate it.
If you need it, you want it so badly it almost hurts.
If you try to get it, it just makes you anxious and nervous.
If you try to find a shortcut without it, you will end up disappointed.
It has no fixed price in dollars, and there are those who spend their whole lives seeking it and still fail.

What is it?


|
v



Patience/Time

While this applies to many things in life, it is absolutely essential to winemaking. I have referred to it as Tepe's law or the 3 P's - Patience Patience Patience. Since you followed the instructions and took care of what you needed to, just give your very young wine some time and you will not be disappointed.
You should start out not expecting to drink your Pinot Noir until 2014 - dwell on that timetable as you are fermenting it, racking it, bottling it, and stowing it away, and the time will pass quickly enough.

 

[ibglowin]

Just in case we haven't properly welcomed you, welcome to the FVW forums and this new hobby.

So your on #4 and this will be your first kit you make by the book......??????

Adding stewed bananas and other types of fruit are considered pretty big tweaks and ones that could impact the taste of a wine for the good or bad.

These are all VERY good kits and I have made quite a few of them myself including the Chilean Pinot and the Pinot Grigio.

The whites will take 12 months to really get good and the reds 18 - 24 months. You will be able to drink them before then but they will not impress anyone. You just can't hurry the aging process along no matter how many bananas or anything else for that matter you throw in.

If you have been as you say meticulous in your sanitizing practice I doubt you have anything going on from a lack of sanitizing.

Did you add the Sorbate before bottling? If so then that could be the funky smell/taste you are experiencing. Some can taste/smell it, others can't. It's kind of a sweet bubble gum smell. Its a funky smell for sure but it will fade over time.

Because you added stewed bananas and other fruit we really have no idea as to what is wrong here as perhaps that is the root of the bad smell or off flavors.

Only time will tell with these like any other wine.

I have made the Renaissance Chilean Pinot Noir. I made it to the letter with no "tweaks". At bottling (8mo) it tasted pretty fantastic for an 8 mo old wine. I won't even try one of the 2 splits I made until 12 mo and then the 2nd one at approx 15 mo. At approx 18 months the first full bottle will be opened.

Patience is your friend in the wine making business.

Buy a bunch of commercial wine and drink that while you dream about the day your wine is ready.

Save the bottles for bottling, rinse, repeat........

Repeat after me, I will make this kit "by the book, I will make this kit by the book...."

Keep us posted!

 

[vcasey]

I am all for tweaking my homemade wines and some of the lower end kits but not kits like the MMR series, with appleman's amarone being the exception that I'll try one of these days.
If you want to play and that is part of the fun, split the kit in half. That way you'll be able to compare your results and at least you'll have half the kit that you should be pleased with and enjoy.
You may also want to pick up some 1 gallon glass jugs make try your hand at making wines from fruit. Or again pick up a smaller kit and split it to play with fruit additions.
Oh and that patience and time thing really works pretty well.

 

[Randoneur]

I have never gotten to the point where I can predict from the smell and taste of a green wine what it will be like after aging. All I can do is guestimate. IMO simplicity is the best practice in wine making.
It is what it is! Just enjoy.

 

[robie]

These individuals have given you some good advice, Inmar. Don't be too quick to try to change something that is already a good thing. However, I know where you are coming from because I felt when I started that I had to experiment. All said and done, the kits are pretty nice right out of the box. As you gain experience, any necessary tweaks will become obvious for "next time". This is because until you have tasted the finished (after aging) wine, you really won't know what tweaks it might need.

As for aromas, sometimes the correct aromas come forward right away, but most of the time, in my experience, it develops along with the taste, as a function of correct aging.

Did I read you right that you might have some sort of other "off" smells... Can you describe them a little better?
Sulfur?
Rotten eggs?
burned rubber?
Decay?

Maybe it is just the smell of wine fermenting, which to me is not quite the same as bread fermenting. I have taken some of my friends down to my fermentation area.

Enjoy your new hobby. You will get a lot of different opinions about aging, but for me, with the exception of several summer wines, none of the one year old red wines, which I have made, are anywhere nearly ready to drink. This includes two kits that specifically stated they were ready to drink in 6 months.

 

[jnmar]

Thanks BartReeder and ibglowin for your welcome, your very worthwhile riddle, and
mantra. Actually, my daily prayers is, "Lord, give me patience...and
give it to me NOW!". lol



ib, yes hopefully this will be my first kit made entirely by the book,
though not intentionally. My first experience I posted about with
complete pictures was the Mustang Grape wine started this past Aug and
bottled in mid-Dec so we could we could share with family and friends in
Michigan at Christmas. Call it "Beginners Luck" I suppose but that
wine almost made itself despite me being involved. Especially
considering I let it ferment on native yeast, outside in 95+ degree temps, in a covered trash
can, after adding a ton of sugar (per recipe), and not using any
chemicals at all until a week before bottling when I added the usual
dose of K-meta and sorbate. I had no idea what I was doing. Every
time I checked it I would not have been one bit surprised to find I had made
Mustang vinegar. We're thrilled with it's sweetnsour character plus all
who have commented on it have been very complimentary even at it's young
age. Even the ones who are not known for being so graceous. I really didn't
want to bottle and give it away but I did so in the interest of family harmony, if
you know what I'm saying.



The first kit, CC California Blush Zen, I fully intended to make by the
book, but while on our two week trip to Michigan, it sucked the K-meta
from the airlock back into the carboy and with my sister adding more to
the airlock every time she found it low, it got a heavy dose...full to
the airlock stopper. This was after I had stabilized as per
instructions and added the F-pack. So no, it doesn't qualify as being
by the book.



The second, a MM Merlot, I had the bright idea of adding the banana
juice and blackberry's to. I suppose that is a major tweak but one I
didn't think would hurt. Other than those two things, I racked to
primary added the yeast nutrient, racked back into clean carboy then
added the two packs of oak chips on schedule according to instructions. It seems to be doing okay though not
exactly what I'd call a very pleasing aroma at this point. It's still
in the carboy on the gross lees...lot's of lees as a matter of fact,
probably an inch and a quarter of lees in the bottom. Today is Day 8 in
it's young life. Nothing else has been added, no Siligel, no Liquigel,
no K-meta, and no K-sorbate.

I just checked the temp and SG. Wow, temp corrected SG of .993, started at 1.104 corrected. Calculated ABV 14.8%. Sampled a little in glass, I can certainly detect the alcohol, it has a bite. I can also smell the oak after swirling, I think that may be what I'm smelling that seems to be a little off. I understand aging will take care of that, correct?

I'm not sure I can promise to totally adhere to the aging rule. I bought a case of splits so I can have some tastes along the way. But I do have a quite, cool, closet set up and ready to receive the fruit of my labor.

Thank ya'll for your friendly admonishments. I'm really enjoying the hobby and as I said I'm anxious to follow this recent one along it's journey so I can have a better idea of what to expect along the way. No doubt the Mustang gave me heightened expectations of more immediate gratification. On your advice IB, think I'll crack open a new bottle of Merlot, pour me a big ol glass, sit back, kick my feet up and relax...oh wait, it's Monday...I spoze I ought to go to work after the wine that is.

Edited to add: Sorry Dancerman, thanks for your response as well. I had the reply window open for quite a while and failed to see your added post. I think my reply will answer your question regarding the smell. It's not a bad one, just unexpected.

 

[ibglowin]

If this thing is still sitting on the gross lees then what your more than likely smelling is the yeast and SO2 (think bad sulfur smell) that the yeast produce. Once you rack off the lees and do a good splash rack to get some air into the wine it should dissipate and then you should start to smell what the wine has to offer at this young age. Its still very green so it could/should taste tart and astringent on the palate at this point.

The second, a MM Merlot, I had the bright idea of adding the banana juice and blackberry's to.  I suppose that is a major tweak but one I didn't think would hurt. Other than those two things, I racked to primary added the yeast nutrient, racked back into clean carboy then added the two packs of oak chips on schedule according to instructions. It seems to be doing okay though not exactly what I'd call a very pleasing aroma at this point.  It's still in the carboy on the gross lees...lot's of lees as a matter of fact, probably an inch and a quarter of lees in the bottom.  Today is Day 8 in it's young life.  Nothing else has been added, no Siligel, no Liquigel, no K-meta, and no K-sorbate.I just checked the temp and SG.  Wow, temp corrected SG of .993, started at 1.104 corrected. 

Calculated ABV 14.8%.  Sampled a little in glass, I can certainly detect the alcohol, it has a bite.  I can also smell the oak after swirling, I think that may be what I'm smelling that seems to be a little of.

 

[jnmar]

If this thing is still sitting on the gross lees then what your more than likely smelling is the yeast and SO2 (think bad sulfur smell) that the yeast produce. Once you rack off the lees and do a good splash rack to get some air into the wine it should dissipate and then you should start to smell what the wine has to offer at this young age. Its still very green so it could/should taste tart and astringent on the palate at this point.

Yes it's still on the gross lees. So at day 8 and with the SG at .993, is it ready to be racked off the lees or should I leave it for a while longer? When I do rack, should I try to make it a clean rack or is it okay to take some of the lees with it at this point. As much lees as there are and with them appearing to be as fluffy as they appear to be, I think I'd have to leave a lot of liquid behind unless I take some of the lees with me when I rack. I suppose what I'm asking is at what point does sitting on the lees become harmful to the long term quality of the wine.

 

[vcasey]

Yes it's still on the gross lees. So at day 8 and with the SG at .993, is it ready to be racked off the lees or should I leave it for a while longer? When I do rack, should I try to make it a clean rack or is it okay to take some of the lees with it at this point. As much lees as there are and with them appearing to be as fluffy as they appear to be, I think I'd have to leave a lot of liquid behind unless I take some of the lees with me when I rack. I suppose what I'm asking is at what point does sitting on the lees become harmful to the long term quality of the wine.

The first rack is always a rough one, meaning I'll leave some of the lees behind but I try and get all the liquid because that can be a lot of wine and the wine belongs in a bottle not in the drain. As far as if its ready to be racked or not, I ferment to dry in the primary and rack when the SG is stable for 2 or 3 days in a row.

 

[v1rotate]

14 days is probably about as long as you want to leave the wine in
primary. Don't worry too much about leaving sediment behind. There are
usually 2 more rackings after this one to separate the sediment from the
wine.



One thing you can do is save the sediment by pouring into a wine bottle.
After a couple of weeks the sediment will separate from some pretty
nasty sludge to give you some usable wine for topping. I have had some
wines with an incredible amount of sediment. It's a shame to waste it.

 

[ibglowin]

Are you sure this thing is 0.993 after 8 days? That would be like an all time fastest ferment ever IMO.

Normally after 7 days your doing good to be sitting at approx ~1.000.

I then do a quick and dirty rack and transfer everything that doesn't stick to the bottom of the primary over to glass.

Let it finish fermenting over the next 10-12 days to the lowest SG it will attain.

Double check the SG. If its 0.993, its done. Not sure what sitting on the gross less for another week or so will do for you.

 

[jnmar]

I just checked it again IB, I questioned my readings yesterday so ran it again with the same results



Today my hydrometer shows 0.992 with a temp of 74. That corrects to
.993 SG I believe. I thought it seemed rather quick myself but I was
taking temps at least once, sometimes twice, a day when I stirred and ran
SGs. I re-hydrated the yeast before pitching and initial temp of juice
was 80. The next morning temp was @ 76 and it was very actively
fermenting, I mean like boiling frothy up to the lid and trying to jump
out from under it. From that point on temps ranged from 74 to 76.
Remember it had banana juice from 5 bananas and blackberries in mesh bag
added to it.



Day 3... SG @ 1.050 temp 74, I added the yeast nutrient and stirred.
Still very actively boiling but temp was in OK range I thought.



Day 4, SG 1.022, Temp 76



Day 6, SG @ 1.002, temp 75, activity much reduced. I stirred well and
racked everything to carboy on top of oak chips. Very small bubbles
still rising through oak. I stirred daily lightly to mix in oak.



Day 7, SG 1.00, Temp 75





Day 9 (yesterday) SG .993, temp 70, and wine very still...no bubbles at all.



It's still sitting in the carboy on gross lees waiting for me to get off my bum.



By the way, I have 2 hydrometers, different brands. They read 4 gravity
points apart, consistently. Using a gal of distilled water i
bought, one reads +2 and the other -2 pts. So I put one away and use the
other for all readings. I'd be inclined to correct for error if I had
any idea that the jug of distilled water was in fact 1.000. I could
have three errors involved perhaps, or one or none depending on if I
guessed the right hydrometer to use.

But truthfully + or - 2 points doesn't matter, does it? Almost daily my
dear wife reminds me that it's not rocket science. LOL Usually
followed not too much later with me seeing her rip out some of her quilting stitches.
YUP...Then it's my turn...lol

 

[v1rotate]

Day 6, SG @ 1.002, temp 75, activity much reduced. I stirred well and
racked everything to carboy on top of oak chips. Very small bubbles
still rising through oak. I stirred daily lightly to mix in oak

The sediment left behind after primary fermentation might cause some off flavors if the wine is not racked to a carboy after about 14 days. After racking to a carboy to finish fermentation, the sediment given off by the wine before stabilizing/degassing is fairly benign. I have read of people letting the wine sit on these "fine lees" for several months with no ill effects.

The term "gross lees" is somewhat misleading. I believe it refers to grape winemaking where you have stems, seeds, skins, twigs and leaves which need to be separated from the wine during the "press."

To answer your question, it is best to wait until day 20 or so to stabilize/degas. There are biochemical reactions still taking place in the wine after the yeast finish fermenting.

I have had quite a few wines ferment to dry, 0.990 or so, in as little as 6 days. I used to live in Austin, Tx and we kept the house at 77' so the must temps were pretty high and the fermentations went by very fast. Not ideal, of course. Now I live in a mountain community next to Lake Tahoe and the wine room stays at 68' year round and my ferments are taking closer to 12 days to finish.

 

[jnmar]

I'm sure you're correct about the gross lees thing. I'll try to find a better way to refer to the total of the lees as opposed to the fine lees which seem to come much later. After making the Mustang wine first using the whole grape and stems I am aware of the difference but just lack a better way to refer to the initial sediment including the bentonite which these kits have asked to be added from the beginning.

I just realized what a huge difference the temperature makes in fermentation. For the first time, I had some plastic water bottles frozen a waiting. This morning my latest, the Pinot Noir, was up to 80 Degrees and really boiling and foamy. Cooled it down to 72 with ice bottle then removed them. Foaming almost stopped but still much turbidity (oops, I really meant turbulence) going on in liquid. I'm going to watch it closely and try to keep this one cooler and slowed down some.

 

[jnmar]

Just thought I'd give a little update to the earlier posts.

Naked Lady Chilean Pinot Noir on left. Fermentation finished at .993 SG, I racked to secondary and added Siligel, liquigel, and 2oz of oak chips last night. Smells wonderful and taste is good even now. It began to clear almost immediately. I think this one will make me proud for sure.

Our Blackbird Merlot in center, much improved aroma after racking and adding fining agents. The off odor I referred to, I think may have been caused by rather warm ferment temps, It approached 81 and stayed for a few days and finished fermenting very quickly but I didn't know how I should try to slow it down. Hopefully with time it will continuing coming around, it's much better than it was a few days ago already.

On the right, our Red Cow Blush Zen. Overdosed with K-meta, splashed racked a few times. Much improved but we'll just have to see what father time does for it...still has some of that "chemical" smell, but even with that I think could drink it if I had a couple of glasses of good stuff to get me primed I spoze. lol...poor thang, she got a little mistreated.

All three of these will be going into my wine closet shortly to sleep and age a while.

 

[ibglowin]

Looking good!

So, the "Naked "Lady" smells wonderful and taste good to boot?

That sounds like a winning combination that would be hard to beat!

 

[rrussell]

could hydrometer need calibrating? I've seen where the scale can slip causing false readings. Just a thought. I've never had a wine ferment to that low a level.

 

[Wade E]

Ive seen one go as far as .990 once!

 

[jnmar]

I have two hydrometers and they are 4 points apart. In checking them
against purchased distilled water, one reads -2, the other +2. To avoid
confusion on my part, I put one away and use the one which is easier
for me to read. I correct the reading for both temperature and the -2
calibration error based on the distilled water.



It irritates the snot out of me and I've been on the verge of buying a
set of short range hydrometers just because I hate having that error to
contend with. Even though in my mind I'm pretty sure 2 SG points is not
going to make much of a difference if any. After all, I reason to
myself, wine was being made for a few thousand of years without them
having any idea of what specific gravity was.



Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong, but if the sg is
reasonably close to the mid .990s and stable for a couple of days, the only
difference the final sg is going to make is in the "estimated" ABV...and
that's going to include some error unless a much more refined method
besides taking OG and FG then calculating.