Sorbate and ML

[firemanthornman]

I picked up some potassium sorbate at the local wine supply house and the proprietor said I needed to let my wine finish malolactic before I use it or it will smell like geraniums. I was planning on using it on some fruit wines that I didn't put through ml. Anyone have any experiences with this? Thanks

 

[grapeman]

It sounds like the proprietor needs a bit more information. If the wine finished normal fermentation, has been sulfited and fined, then sorbate can be used if you want to sweeten it. If it was a wine that was unprotected with sulfite and under semi-clean conditions, then it could start it's own mlf. Have you sulfited it yet?

 

[rjb222]

To prevent any malolactic make sure to keep up your sulfite levels and you will not have a problem. Why are you adding sorbate to a dry fruit wine or are you going to sweeten the wine?

 

[firemanthornman]

I have sulfited already. I plan on back sweetening. Thanks for the quick replys.

 

[ibglowin]

Your not supposed to use Sorbate on a wine that has gone through MLF. If you do you risk ruining the wine should their be any MLB that are still alive and actively looking for a food source, in this instance sorbic acid which gets turned into hexadienol, otherwise known as geraniol, which produces the strong and disagreeable odor of rotting geraniums – a highly undesirable outcome that cannot be fixed.

 

[seth8530]

It is possible to use lysozomes to kill the MLF off. It is sold in certain wine stores. Might need to look around a bit for it. If properly used you can supposedly add sorbate after you have given the wine a proper dose of lysozomes.

 

[mmadmikes1]

It is possible to use lysozomes to kill the MLF off. It is sold in certain wine stores. Might need to look around a bit for it. If properly used you can supposedly add sorbate after you have given the wine a proper dose of lysozomes.

Never added sorbate to a wine with MLF and don't understand why you would?

 

[grapeman]

The original poster commented that he did not use mlf on the wine, so I don't understand why you guys are saying not to use it???? As long as the sulfite levels are alright, he can add sorbate to sweeten if need be.

 

[seth8530]

Never added sorbate to a wine with MLF and don't understand why you would?

Incase you wanted to back sweeten a wine that had undergone MLF.

 

[mmadmikes1]

I only do MLF on Reds, and I never backsweetin Reds, so guess that is why I did get it. BTW I backsweetin wines all the time and NEVER use sorbate.

 

[Deezil]

I picked up some potassium sorbate at the local wine supply house and the proprietor said I needed to let my wine finish malolactic before I use it or it will smell like geraniums. I was planning on using it on some fruit wines that I didn't put through ml. Anyone have any experiences with this? Thanks

If you're using it on wines that havent been exposed to MLB, then sorbate is fine to add prior to backsweetening, as others have pointed out...

As for why you'd ever MLF & backsweeten the same wine, the best example i can think of where you might want both, would be an apple wine..

 

[altavino]

If you didnt inoculate the wine with MLB , the is little risk it will go through mlf .

Even with grape wines the risk is fairly low especially if you sulfite at crush.

I'd just let the fruit wine go dry , sulfite , rack off any lees , then sorbate and back sweeten . Leave under airlock for a month to make sure it hasn't refermented , check and adjust so2 and if it's nice and clear bottle it .


Back sweetening an mlf wine is almost never done , usually the acid is kept higher to give a nice balance to the sweetness.


For example when making ice wine , the juice I have worked with comes in at 36 brix and 3 ta . I bring the acid up to 10 g/Litre and arrest the ferment with 15 brix RS

 

[seth8530]

The thing is arresting fermentation can be a very chancy thing.. Them yeast can be stubborn buggers. Sure you can cold crash it and then sterile filter it then follow that up with a dose of sulfite and sorbate.. But not everyone has access to all of these tools and It is still a little chancy because sometimes these yeasty beasties dont quite feel like doing as they are told.

 

[mmadmikes1]

Controlling yeast with sorbate and K-Meta are also chancy. I chose to use natural method of letting Alcohol control the yeast. It is not chancy and then I use K meta for oxidation control. No need for sorbate at all. This method I started using because I can taste sorbate and dont like it at all. Choosing yeast with lower alcohol tolerance allows backsweeting without worry. Using nature is what wine making is about. So use it all to your advantage. More bottle bombs have been made by people using sorbate and K meta than people who don't because they think they are safe and didn't realize you can't stop an active fermentation with sorbate and sulfite. Maybe it is time this site pushed yeast selection more. Now I am way off this threads subject

 

[seth8530]

Controlling yeast with sorbate and K-Meta are also chancy. I chose to use natural method of letting Alcohol control the yeast. It is not chancy and then I use K meta for oxidation control. No need for sorbate at all. This method I started using because I can taste sorbate and dont like it at all. Choosing yeast with lower alcohol tolerance allows backsweeting without worry. Using nature is what wine making is about. So use it all to your advantage. More bottle bombs have been made by people using sorbate and K meta than people who don't because they think they are safe and didn't realize you can't stop an active fermentation with sorbate and sulfite. Maybe it is time this site pushed yeast selection more. Now I am way off this threads subject

I happen to disagree with you.. Mainly because yes yeast is rated within certain tollerenes but yeast is a stubborn critter. If you rely solely on alcohol to prevent fermentation ie use a yeast rated for 12% and set your target for 12% Their is a very good chance that once you back sweeten sometime along the road once conditions become more favorable that the yeast might decide and wake up a little and munch on some of the sugars you have added into the wine. At the least you got champagne at the worst you've made bottle bombs. I believe that one should take a triple headed approach to try and control fermentation.

1. Let it ferment dry
2. Add sorbate and sulfite
3. add sugar
4. check for signs of fermentation
5. Bottle

I personally have not been able to taste sorbate unless it is used in grossly large amounts.

 

[Runningwolf]

The thing is arresting fermentation can be a very chancy thing.. Them yeast can be stubborn buggers. Sure you can cold crash it and then sterile filter it then follow that up with a dose of sulfite and sorbate.. But not everyone has access to all of these tools and It is still a little chancy because sometimes these yeasty beasties dont quite feel like doing as they are told.

Seth you are right about it being chancy for a home winemaker to do. That is why some practices are best left to the wineries that can do it properly. I make Late Harvest wine every year and the juice usually stops fermenting at about 1.06- 1.07 or about 16-17 brix and it starts out at about 40 brix.

The first crush we did last fall the juice was hitting 50 brix so we let the grapes warm up from 14* to 18* over night and the yield was trice as much and the brix fell down to about 40 which is right in line with what we wanted.

 

[rjb222]

Controlling yeast with sorbate and K-Meta are also chancy. I chose to use natural method of letting Alcohol control the yeast. It is not chancy and then I use K meta for oxidation control. No need for sorbate at all. This method I started using because I can taste sorbate and dont like it at all. Choosing yeast with lower alcohol tolerance allows backsweeting without worry. Using nature is what wine making is about. So use it all to your advantage. More bottle bombs have been made by people using sorbate and K meta than people who don't because they think they are safe and didn't realize you can't stop an active fermentation with sorbate and sulfite. Maybe it is time this site pushed yeast selection more. Now I am way off this threads subject

In this particular case I have to agree with mmadmikes as long as the chaplization is handled correctly, as long as the temperture is kept up during chapilization and you add untill The air lock and hydrometer agree that the yeast can not produce more alchohol. At that point the addition of sulfite will knock out any live critters and the rest will be so weak they won't be able to start anything.You also must keep up the flavors as a weak flavor profile will definetly lead to a alcohol forward flavor.

 

[seth8530]

The thing I dont like about that method is that it

A) Limits you to the type of wines you can make with your yeast.. Ie you must always use hit the upper limit where funky flavours can be produced.

B) Who is to say that when you are chapitlizing the yeast that it didnt decide to go dormant and might decide to wake back up later when the sulfites have worn down and the conditoins have become more favorable... Why take chances?

 

[mmadmikes1]

Because I dont bottle for at least a year lately it has been closer to 2 years. Let it start, I dont care and adding K meta at start(I dont do) can also stress yeast and create some off flavors. So far I have had no problems with off flavors at all. I make really good wines. That is not entirely true, I did play with turbo yeast and it created a lot of off flavors that werent good at all.
Most bottle bombs are created by new winemakers thinking sorbate and sulfites will stop an active fermentation and they won't. The second major cause is new winemakes bottling with out proper degassing. By not bottling so fast I solve both of those problems. And what happens when the sulfite levels in your wine go down? Sorbate will not prevent fermentation from starting it will only prevent yeast from reproducing. Same place I am in at that point aren't you?
Have you ever trying to get a wine restarted after it has gone completely dry? Without extra ordinary measure I would bet you would fail

 

[seth8530]

It is indeed difficult to make wine stop with sorabate and i agree alot of new winemakers prob make bottle bombs by using sorbate to prevent fermentation. And it can be difficult to restart a dry wine.. But, given enough time it might decide its time to eat.. However, my philosophy is why play with fire?