Other Raisons no good?

[joeswine]

Raisins to be or not to be that is the question?

Great subject, as for me I use raisins in my wines depending on the type of wine it is, not all wines will deliver their potential with the addition of raisins it depends on the type of wine and the style that it's made into, (you must know the characteristics of your wine first )at least that's been my experience. Italian the Reds are fundamentally employed in this usage, they can accept the depth and added flavor, if any that the raisins will give up.

Great whites, great whites will do the same if you're using white raisins ( once again know the characteristics of the wine )and if it will be enhanced by this process. I seen that some of you have problems with the raisin process and stick to the primary, that's one way to do it. The other way in my opinion only that the wine will benefit in a larger way from the infusion of the raisins/is in the secondary.

Theory, if placed in the secondary directly after primary without hesitation this means you have to keep a close eye on the SG. The raisins at that point we'll have a time to infuse their flavor and not confuse the structure of the wine as was naturally conceived, picture it's like making a sauce, first you have the base, then you add the spice then infusion occurs.

The raisins themselves will cause a slight MLf on their own, causing very small bubbles in the wine keep an eye on them keep checking the SG you'll see it go up a little and then come down that's when you know the raisins have given up to the wine their strength, this usually takes about 2 to 3 weeks no longer.

For those of you who think outside the box this is definitely the way to go, it's not for everybody you have to know your limitations as a winemaker, you have to know what you're trying to achieve and hopefully you'll be satisfied in the end. For those of you who follow,( when good wines gone bad) you will see this process over and over and over it works, it works for me, and it has worked for many others on this thread. I do most of my communications via PM, that's why you don't see a lot of it in this open forum, we have tried to show this process in its simplest form .

Nice conversation

 

[geek]

Has anyone done an MLF test after using raisins in secondary?
I'd really like to know results.

 

[Turock]

Wow--NOW you guys have gotten me interested in this raisin discussion!! Sooooo--how many raisins are you adding to the red juice buckets? Sounds intriguing, based on your experiences.

 

[Turock]

joeswine---I think you should post in the forum. That gives everyone a chance to learn.

 

[Pumpkinman]

joeswine: The raisins themselves will cause a slight MLf on their own

This is absolutely impossible, raisins can add enough sugar and nutrients to stimulate the yeast into fermenting again, they cannot in any way cause a MLF, you need Malolactic Bacteria, wild or added by the winemaker, to stimulate MLF.

This is exactly the reason why I posted the facts regarding adding raisins, not my personal opinion, facts, not to say one way is better than the other, ultimately, what you do to your wine is your choice, but posting information like this is not only misleading and unfounded, it is a major disservice to anyone that is trying to learn more about MLF.

Joe, no disrespect but there is absolutely no way that raisins can cause MLF, you can call it "thinking outside the box", how can people learn if you are telling them stuff like this?

 

[grapeman]

Having wild malolactic bacteria on contaminated raisins could be possible, but in my opinion would be very UNLIKLEY. They normally have sulfites on them to protect them so like I said it would not be normal. I would never count on raisins to start MLF. The best and most consistent way would be to introduce a known culture, just like adding a good wine yeast (only mlb is a lot more expensive).

 

[Turock]

Pumpkinman---Thanks for that post--that was my initial thought too but didn't say anything because it is known that slight, insignificant MLF's can occur on wines. I forget the details--been a long time since I read that.

I know raisins have sulfites on them so that alone would limit an MLF. Does anyone know how much sulfite is in raisins?

 

[RCGoodin]

Great subject, as for me I use raisins in my wines depending on the type of wine it is, not all wines will deliver their potential with the addition of raisins it depends on the type of wine and the style that it's made into, (you must know the characteristics of your wine first )at least that's been my experience. Italian the Reds are fundamentally employed in this usage, they can accept the depth and added flavor, if any that the raisins will give up.

Great whites, great whites will do the same if you're using white raisins ( once again know the characteristics of the wine )and if it will be enhanced by this process. I seen that some of you have problems with the raisin process and stick to the primary, that's one way to do it. The other way in my opinion only that the wine will benefit in a larger way from the infusion of the raisins/is in the secondary.

Theory, if placed in the secondary directly after primary without hesitation this means you have to keep a close eye on the SG. The raisins at that point we'll have a time to infuse their flavor and not confuse the structure of the wine as was naturally conceived, picture it's like making a sauce, first you have the base, then you add the spice then infusion occurs.

The raisins themselves will cause a slight MLf on their own, causing very small bubbles in the wine keep an eye on them keep checking the SG you'll see it go up a little and then come down that's when you know the raisins have given up to the wine their strength, this usually takes about 2 to 3 weeks no longer.

For those of you who think outside the box this is definitely the way to go, it's not for everybody you have to know your limitations as a winemaker, you have to know what you're trying to achieve and hopefully you'll be satisfied in the end. For those of you who follow,( when good wines gone bad) you will see this process over and over and over it works, it works for me, and it has worked for many others on this thread. I do most of my communications via PM, that's why you don't see a lot of it in this open forum, we have tried to show this process in its simplest form .

Nice conversation

Amen Master. From Grasshopper.

 

[SouthernChemist]

Based on Joe's description and mentioning of SG changes, he's referring to a restart of fermentation from the sugars in the raisins and not malolactic fermentation.

 

[Pumpkinman]

That is my point, what someone means and what someone posts can be very different, while there are new winemakers that are following these threads verbatim, the poster may know what he meant, but new winemakers may not.
I know what raisins will contribute, you may know, but how many times have you seen something posted and right after that a bunch of people will comment on how they just implemented the same "tweak".
Once again, this is why I posted about the risks, to bring it to peoples attention, not to say who is right and who is wrong, until I read something like this.
This isn't the first post where the poster referenced raisins as starting a MLF, this isn't a witch hunt, it is an attempt to help others by sharing info that is factual.

 

[vernsgal]

Does anyone know how much sulfite is in raisins?

Turock I'm not sure how much is on them but I did find a post of a test someone did on them.
one pound of raisins could provide 35ppm to a gallon of liquid. I think that's a lot of sulfites from raisins.
He doesn't state what liguid was used so I don't know the accuracy of this.Would a more accurate reading work if I took 1/2 a pound raisons in 1/2 gal of water, let it sit overnight and take a reading?

 

[joeswine]

Raises in the wind //secondary fermentation

That is correct southern chemist, the primary fermentation is not quite complete this then combined with the hydration of the raisins with a the alcohol base starts stripping the raisins of there essence at that point tiny little bubbles start to form causing a secondary fermentation this is what I referred to as a slight MLf, may be the term secondary fermentation is more appropriate. This now is allowed to continue for 2 to 3 weeks until the bubbles or over. At that point another SG reading to see where the dryness setting is, then let it set that the process.


And this is why I don't stray too far from my little corner of this forum

 

[vernsgal]

that looks awesome Joe! my blackberry has the same color

 

[jamesngalveston]

to support joe.

In our Sun-Maid Natural Raisins there are no additives or preservatives. When the raisins are ready to be processed, we clean the raisins using large aspirators (vacuums), graders, and shakers to remove stems, dirt, and other foreign objects. We then do a very thorough washing in fresh water which rehydrates the raisins.

Sun-Maid Golden Raisins are cleaned in much the same way, although these raisins are treated with the preservative sulfur dioxide.

 

[vernsgal]

here's the complete link James is showing
http://www.sunmaid.com/frequently-asked-questions.html

 

[grapeman]

This is why I like plenty of activity on the forum and posts. It is a sort of checks and balances. Joe meant something a bit different than he said and until someone brings it up, it is just passed by. That is when some new person may follow something blindly without knowing the true intent. As others clarify this through civil discussion the true meaning comes out. Nobody is at fault here, it has been cleared up so on with the discussion!

 

[LoneStarLori]

This is why I like plenty of activity on the forum and posts. It is a sort of checks and balances. Joe meant something a bit different than he said and until someone brings it up, it is just passed by. That is when some new person may follow something blindly without knowing the true intent. As others clarify this through civil discussion the true meaning comes out. Nobody is at fault here, it has been cleared up so on with the discussion!

I find this thread very interesting and will be back to read more about the process. But right now, I'm off to the grocery. I have a weird craving for raisins.

 

[vernsgal]

I find this thread very interesting and will be back to read more about the process. But right now, I'm off to the grocery. I have a weird craving for raisins.

hahahaha! oh Lori that gave me a laugh! thanks! I'm off to bake shortbread myself (no raisins )

 

[Boatboy24]

I find this thread very interesting and will be back to read more about the process. But right now, I'm off to the grocery. I have a weird craving for raisins.

I have an overwhelming urge to drop a handful of raisins into my glass of wine...

This really is a great discussion. I've only used them twice. Once in the EP Amarone kit. They came with the kit and instructions called for them in primary - I put them in secondary. The second time was with a Valpolicella juice bucket. I really wanted a Ripassa style and used 12oz of raisins in both primary and secondary. I don't think I achieved the raisiny, oxidized flavor I was going for, but at only two months of age, the wine is pretty decent already. With time, perhaps I will get that flavor profile though.

Keep the comments coming!

 

[vernsgal]

now I'm trying to bake cookies and follow this post. lol
I just want to make a note that in spite the fact I posted a link that James had referred to, I don't want anyone to get hung up on the sulphite part of this discussion. We all know of sulphites in dried fruits and raisins . There are several posts on WMT on that topic.I only posted the link because a partial part of it was put on here.