Other Raisons no good?

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vernsgal

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so I can't find a thread, on this so I'm going to throw it out there..
is putting raisons in your juice buckets and kits not good?
I saw on another thread(chilean juice buckets) some touching lightly on this topic and went looking to see what I could find on it. I did find this thread (not from here and I'm not sure if I can show link , but here it is)
westchesterwinemakers.com/2013/05/31/x-18/


so what's everyone's opinion on this who have used the raisons in their pails/kits?
 
I am not a winemaker with credentials as like turock are runningwolf so I may have a different opinon..
I can understand adding bannana to a wine for a added yeast supplement.
I dont know why you would want to add raisins, (dried grapes)...why not at the grapes them selves.
I dont think, from reading that it is a nutrient, are that it adds body.
Unless you add like 5 lbs per gallon.
I do would be interested in others synopsis of this..
My take is this...if you have to add dried grapes, why not add fresh.
 
Vernsgal,
That is an excellent link, the original poster, bzac, or Zac Brown, is one of the most talented winemakers on the Internet in my opinion, he has worked in wineries all over the world and has friends such as Daniel Pambianchi (one of the foremost authorities on making wine at home and small scale wineries) and other well known winemakers.
The addition of raisins is a risk in every way, I have read that it has been justified as"it starts secondary fermentation" , this is total nonsense, the only secondary fermentation that I know of is MLF, the addition of raisins to the secondary restarts primary fermentation, getting already tired or potentially stressed yeast started again in an attempt to process the newly added nutrients, this in itself is risky, if the yeast cannot process all of the nutrients, the nutrients left in the wine become nutrients for potential spoilage organisms, the reason why this "secondary fermentation" is so slow is that the yeast have a difficult time trying to process these nutrients, there isn't a "nice light fermentation" taking place... furthermore, there is a reason why it is highly recommended to add the last nutrient addition no later than 1/3 of fermentation completion; if this doesn't make you stop and think about why you would add raisins to your wine, think about why you should add an oxidized product to your wine?
There is more than one reason why you will NEVER hear of any winery that is adding raisins to their wines. ......
 
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As I recall, folks started adding raisins to kits because some high end kits (eg Amarone) came with raisins. Even then, there were people buying wine grapes in season, and freezing them in kit-sized batches.

With the advent of the packs of grape skins, some people seem to have moved away from the raisins. Unfortunately, the grape skin packs are not readily available as the kit manufacturers don't make them available as a separate item.

There are a number of threads out there about kit 'tweaking'. Some of them should cover the use of raisins. Here's one from bzac (who is mentioned in the link in your post) to read...
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f84/bzac-kit-tweaking-post-31007/

Steve
 
Well, granted I apparently do not have the credentials as Turlock or Runningwolf as stated by Jamesngalvestan but this is a question I would ask you, what grapes are the raisins made from? Raisins bought from the grocery store are not made from wine grapes so why would you put them in your wine?
 
Okay Friends, I am going to swim against the tide here and I have the utmost respect for James, Tom, Julie and Steve. I have added raisins to my kits and juice buckets with excellent results. I believe they give the wine more body and mouth feel, not to mention more taste. We used to add raisins to wine at home when we made wine from grapes, again with excellent results.

If you believe that "the proof is in the pudding" and you can beg, borrow or steal a bottle of Joe's (of joeswine fame) Amarone, I think you will agree with me. You will be hard pressed to find a better bottle of wine.
 
Rocky,
I too have nothing but the utmost respect for you, I will agree with you about Joe's Amarone, but did it taste that good because of raisins? I will say that in my opinion it had more to do with oak powder, tannins and being aged for 3 years.
This isn't an attempt to discredit Joe, he obviously can make miracles out of wine kits, but I've also tasted a few kits that didn't have any raisins added that were real nice.
I'm merely posting scientific facts, everyone is free to make their own choices and wine.
 
I am not a winemaker with credentials as like turock are runningwolf so I may have a different opinon..
My take is this...if you have to add dried grapes, why not add fresh.
well James ,sometimes some of us don't have access to fresh
There is more than one reason why you will NEVER hear of any winery that is adding raisins to their wines. ......
Tom, you've given me past advise that has worked bang on so I'm not going to say you're wrong but.. the 1st kit I ever bought was a Barolo and it came with raisons

thanks for the link!

Raisins bought from the grocery store are not made from wine grapes so why would you put them in your wine?
Julie I don't go by credentials anyways. There are some on here that I just listen to, and you are one of them.Answer to your question- in the past I was lead to believe adding raisons to your wine gave it more body in the same way as bananas do. I have added to my lower end kits and "I" believe it did give them more body.

I have added raisins to my kits and juice buckets with excellent results.
Rocky, I too have made an Amarone, with raisons, aged for 2 years and it was excellent!

My question is for all pros and cons in kits and pails. I know that they differ than fresh fruit wines , that aren't all preset, so I'm curious what everyone is thinking and why.
My way in the past has been to add 1 lb raisons per gal. for body.
I just did 2-1 g raspberry wines, 1 with 2 bananas and 1 with 1 lb raisons to compare.I won't know til this time next year but will give my outcome (opinion)
I am interested in all opinions and experience in this so keep them coming!
 
Vernsgal,
I appreciate your kind words, my point was more to make you aware of the risks, raisins in kits could possibly hide the "kit taste", I really don't know what to tell you other than wineries do not add raisins to their wines, as a matter of fact, most wineries prefer to remove "raisined" grapes before crushing, kit manufacturers have switched to adding grape skin packs, there must be a reason why.
anyway, I simply posted the facts, the risks, but the beauty of this hobby is that you get to use what you feel is best for you and what renders the results that you are looking for.
I wish you much success!
Tom
 
not to mention that all dried fruit contains quite a bit of sulphides.

even organic grapes are treated with something.
 
Cheers to everyone, I always find it interesting to see how others feel about these sorts of things.

I've used raisins in some, and others without. It depends on what flavour profile the wine has, and whether I want that natural 'raisin-y' flavour to be more pronounced.

There are so many additives to put in wine: dehydrated banana bits, dehydrated elderberries, dried apricots; I just don't think I could say no to one without discarding the others. I just make sure the ingredients are as 'safe' as possible before adding to my wine. Rinse/wash anything with sulphites, make my own, etc.

As so many others have said in other threads - this is the beauty of making your own wines. I think it is more a matter of "what do YOU like". Then go from there.
 
I agree with what Tom has said so far on raisins and just to add one other thing. While I do not do kits, I do either fresh fruits or fresh grape wine and never use bananas or raisins, if you use enough fruit there is no need for it, my wines are very full bodied.

As stated previously the beauty is do it the way you like it.
 
I'm going to weigh in as a newbie. I came to this forum to learn and I certainly have. I respect everyones opinion and look at suggestions and tricks as a way to improve what I am doing. It's like going to school on someone else's dollar. :D

With the exception of my first batch, which was a Mustang wine made from grapes on my fence, I have only done kits. Out of the 4 kits, 3 had the Joeswine raisin tweak. The raisins are added toward the end of fermentation at about 102 and in none of my batches did they re-start a vigorous fermentation.

For my taste, the ones with the extra tannin and raisins had much more body. Sometimes to the point where I thought it may have been too much in the beginning. But as they aged, even to only 3-4 months, they mellowed out beautifully and had just the right amount of body. I took my Sangiovese (4 mos old) to a family gathering this weekend and received great reviews.

My current batch is a Symphony, which has not been tweaked. Although it's only 6 weeks old, I can tell already it is much lighter on body and mouthfeel. I am beginning to understand what people have called "kit taste". It's just not as complex and kind of boring.

There are several different tweaked batches documented on Joes Almond wine thread. Both my Sangiovese and Mezza Luna white are on there if anyone wants to see how the process was done. Sangiovese Tweaked wines. And Joes's tweaks are here, which has several different kits. At bare minimum it's some good reading.
 
My opinion is make the wine how you want it to be. If you want to add raisins, go for it. They are not a cure all, though. Better to use actual grapes or fruit if you can get it. Sometimes it does seem that people reflexively want to add things to kits or other wines because they just assume something will be lacking or that that they won't like it otherwise. That may not always be the case.
 
Turock has NO credentials and will admit to NOT knowing everything!!

I have never used raisins--so I obviously have no opinion that counts. I only try to speak to what I truly know--what I study--and what I work with. Things that I don't work with?----well, I never comment on these things because I just DON'T know, and let those with the knowledge speak. There's a great quote from Jimi Hendrix--"Knowledge speaks,but wisdom listens."
 
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its interesting in the bzac thread cpfan posted he expalins how to use raisins, in primary not in a faux secondary way, which is in line with the first link risks highlighted . but then he goes on to say in the cpfan thread,


"My prefered addition is not raisins as they by nature are oxidised , as is any dried fruit . But they are still a worthwhile tweak.

If in season you buy a lug (36 lbs) of red wine grapes , you can hand stemm them fairly easily and add them to a 5 lb ziplock bags crush them and put them in the freezer. then when you make a kit add 1 or 2 of the five pound bags to the must .
let them thaw over night in the must and pitch the yeast the next day.

you get nice aromatics and the concentrate flavours are minimised . this is my favorite red kit tweak , it realy brings out the flavours adds some tannins and gives the wine a much more commercial wine charateristic. one or two bags of grapes won't throw the kit all out of balance in my expireince . don't worry about matching the variety exactly with the kit , a small amount like this won't mask the kit. a medium wieght grape like merlot is a good choice, but any ripe red wine grape will do. if useing cab sauv make sure its ripe or it can taste a bit green.
here's a thread on adding grapes from the other forum
http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=19356&hl=bodega port gold& st=0
its a port kit but the grape part is the same for any kit."
 
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adding raisons to kits became a thing I think because some of the bigger kits do come with raisons and taste amazing. To name 1 brand would be Mosti Mondiale Meglioli. Their Barolo comes with raisons and both the Amarone and Rojo Grande have where you can choose raisons or grape paks.
 
haha I just noticed the very 1st thread I made(aside from introductions)pertained to raisins. That was just over a year ago and I was talking of putting raisins in fruit wine .I know now,in fruit wines ,it's just a matter of more fruit for more body.
My question on this now though is more on adding raisins to kits.Like Lori (and I know many more of you) have followed Joe in adding raisins in the secondary. Now I have to admit none of mine have aged enough yet so I'm not sure on the results but I do know that in the kits I've done that came with raisins, have all turned out great.So another question might be- would it depend on the kit? eg. The Mosti Mondale I did came with raisins, at 1 year tasted awesome.Now if I buy a low end Barolo obviously the taste will not be the same but could I achieve the same body using the same oak and adding raisins?
 
If in season you buy a lug (36 lbs) of red wine grapes , you can hand stemm them fairly easily and add them to a 5 lb ziplock bags crush them and put them in the freezer. then when you make a kit add 1 or 2 of the five pound bags to the must .
****************************************
Please tell me where in West Georgia I can get a lug of merlot grapes:re
 

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