Basically you are right, but lately, starting since not-toasted oak barrels, we can expect also a great increase in polysaccharides and tannins (increase structure, mildness, sweetness) and, even more, a totally new set of fruits (coconunt/apricot from whiskey lactone) and flowers (acacia like ).
Plans for 2020?
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I am sorry but yes, you are wrong.
The truth is that barrels increase wine concentration because alcohol/water evaporation (and thus, refilling), also wood release tannins and polysaccharides, but it does not mean that we have an increase in flavors! What will happen is a "change" in flavors, because oxydation, sometimes MLF, and tertiary compounds coming from chemical reactions and wood flavor releasing. So it is not a concentration but a change. Primary and even more, secondary flavors are going to disappear, even for a slow rate. Primiary aromas will subdue to changes depending by their chemical form (thiols for first, then terpenes will change in some months, finally isoprenoids look more stable).
Micro-oxygenation can help concentrate a red wine because it helps reactions among anthocyanes and tannins via acetaldehyde bonds. We can not speak of a real concentration per se, basically we must speak about a "preservation" of polyphenolic wine potential. Apparently, it does not help to concentrate a white wine, since no good reactions are expected by easy-to-be-oxydized leucoanthocyanes, catechins and even oak tannins are not going to subdue to any good oxydative reaction. Micro-oxygenation can help to preserve fruitiness (preventing reductive off-flavors).
Is that true even for neutral barrels, as the OP was asking about and I was responding to?
Yes, i agree with you indeed. I just wanted to add something to your good answer. If you get a toasted barrel and it got "neutral", then we miss the main point of it!
If they are "old barrels", than the aroma releasing will be very small. Also, micro-oxygenation will be less than the original, since little pores of the wood are already filled by wine. Also, we must keep in mind that wood not only releases aromas but also absorb them (thiols and terpenes). The fraction of absorbed aromas by the wood can be released further to a new wine entering the same barrel. Thus, we can speak about "wine aroma contamination".
If they are "old barrels", than the aroma releasing will be very small. Also, micro-oxygenation will be less than the original, since little pores of the wood are already filled by wine. Also, we must keep in mind that wood not only releases aromas but also absorb them (thiols and terpenes). The fraction of absorbed aromas by the wood can be released further to a new wine entering the same barrel. Thus, we can speak about "wine aroma contamination".
We have evaporation of alcohol and water through the barrel, leaving behind all other constituents. This has to produce a higher concentration of those constituents, e.g., color, flavor, and aroma. My 54 liter barrel gives up 0.5 liters/month, so at the end of a year, the original wine is at 90% of its original volume. Since I'm refilling the lost volume each month the final change in concentration is not an additional 10% (9%?), but the increased concentration should have some perceptible effect.
Is there another factor I'm leaving out?
Yes, this is exactly what happens in barrels, but sadly we can not talk about an increasing in wine aromas in a simply way. First, even if everything else is concentrating, aromas are going to get partially lost for some reasons. One reason is wood absorption, so aromas are bond to the wood matrix, being the thiols the more susceptible of this phenomenon. Another reason is slight oxidation, where therpenes are also involved pretty well. Second, we should discuss about aroma's coverage, since wood will release its own flavors, covering the original wine aromas. Even polysaccharides coming out from wood can bind aromas, reducing their volatility and perception. Again, MLF can change drastically aromas in wine pattern, and it usually happens during barrel ageing. So if you talk about a overall concentration in aromas (sum of volatile compounds whatever the origin) the answer is yes, but if you talk about a "original wine aromas concentration", the answer, to me, it is not.
When I speak of concentration in a barrel, I’m referring to the flavors, not the aroma. If you’re saying that the aromatics don’t necessarily come together in that way, due to the factors you mention, I buy that, post barrel aromas are very different, in a good way IMHO.
Do you disagree that wine becomes more concentrated in flavor during barrel aging?
Do you disagree that wine becomes more concentrated in flavor during barrel aging?
you can accomplish micro-oxidation in LDPE, ie a lot of the commercial food jugs
A flex tank is HDPE. This has a measurable oxygen transmission rate but is significantly less than LDPE as the above test. Food containers are good barriers for water so you don’t have concentration/ the angels share.
A flex tank is HDPE. This has a measurable oxygen transmission rate but is significantly less than LDPE as the above test. Food containers are good barriers for water so you don’t have concentration/ the angels share.
Ignoble Grape
Senior Member
@Adam Beck Where are you located in CA? Assume that the goal is going commercial? I'd be really interested in learning about your process and how you're navigating licensing.
PSlattery
Junior
I’m planning on doing (12) 18lbs crates Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon and wanted to split it into two small batches and use D80 for one batch and D254 for the second batch and use CH16 malo after combining after primary fermentation. I also have 2 buckets of South African Cabernet one South African Select and one Mosti South African Fresco. I was told the Fresco was premium compared to the select. I was going to split the Mosti into two small batches and ferment on the skins from the D80 and D254 from the pressed grapes. A question I have is should I run some juice off the grapes that I’m crushing and add it to the pail of South African fresco and if so how much should I run off?
That's a thought but I think most would add the skins to the buckets after the grapes are pressed. You'd probably have to have a way to keep the juice frozen though.
PSlattery
Junior
I have enough room to keep one pail frozen if not close to frozen and was going to use all of the skins on one pail but was going to put 3 gal of juice on the D80 skins and 3 gal on the D254 skins.
This is just me so take it for what it's worth. I have never had a juice bucket that turned out as good as all grape. I would ferment them separately and if you wanted to blend, blend them after they are finished. Again that's just me.
Just got word the S. Africans arrived at Gino Pinto's. Picking them up tomorrow. Originally ordered 8 half lugs each of Cab and Syrah from Stellenbasch but added an extra of each. Hoping the 2020 Cab turns out as good as the 2018. So far the 2019 isn't impressing me. This will be the first time trying S. African Syrah. On second thought I hope they were talking about grapes.
I'm in Oakland. I have a couple goals... The main thing is I just want to make wine in a larger capacity than the 3 gallons I can do in my apartment. Second is that I want to be able to get access to better grapes and have more control over what grapes I get, and I have found you can't do that unless you're working in larger quantities than I can do in my apartment. Third is that once I start making more than 15 bottles at a time, I'll need to sell them since I can't really see myself drinking a commercial quantity of wine by myself, lol. So yeah, getting licensed to get to accomplish those three. Not really planning on making a profit off the bat - even if I sell out I doubt I'll make much when I'm just buying a half ton of grapes this year. But if this all goes well maybe in a couple years I'll be working at higher volumes.
I'm going to be renting a space that allows an alternating proprietorship type of deal if you have an 02 winegrowers license. I get the space and am allowed to use some gear (crusher, press, bottling, that sort of thing), but you need your own fermenters and storage vessels. Prior to the coronavirus I was helping out a winemaker that works out of the same space once a week on Saturdays.
So I just got all of the 02 license application together and emailed it to the ABC to look over. If it's all kosher then I'll sign it all, pay the fees, and send it to them in the mail. Next is to register with TTB, which I haven't started yet.
Yesterday all my troubles seemed so far away. My son and I crushed the S. African Cab and Shiraz and split each into 4 separate batches of 4.5 to 5 gallons, sorry no pics. He did the crushing while I was preparing the enzymes and sulfur. When we were done we put lids on the buckets and hosed off the outsides. It was late and we didn't notice but we also washed off some of the tape labeling the buckets. This morning when I went to take the brix and pH there were 3 buckets not marked, crap! Luckly, there was enough of a difference in the SG and pH to identify the buckets. The pH of the Cab was 3.72 to 3.75 with an SG of around 1.094. The Shiraz was more like 3.84 to 3.90 and SG closer to 1.100. I'm going to take the average of each and make the adjustment based on that number. I'll adjust the acid on both but only chaptalize the Cab.
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Any cold soak or just doing 24hrs with the enzymes? I think I’m going to try a 5 day cold soak at 50-55 when my Chilean grapes come in May.
No cold soak, but due to a timing issue I didn't make the sugar and acid additions until last night about 48 hours after crush and enzymes. Have a small cap this morning.
What acid corrections did you make? Were you shooting for a specific TA number or a pH target? I've done both, and definitely a TA number is much easier and more exact than pH. Good luck with this one, it should be nice.
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