Planing my next Peach, please help!

[cdevrard]

So, the peaches are steadily coming in now. I am going to pick up a bushel or so this weekend. My last peach wine was a HS2 disaster and I dumped the whole batch. After doing a bunch of research on this site I am forming a game plan and I'd love your input!

The basics
-minimum 10 lbs. per gallon of peaches per gallon (I'm going to wash, dry, destone and freeze the first bushel, then decide if I have enough or need more) Ideally I'd like to make 5 gals.
-No water!
-thaw fruit, put in nylon bag, K meta, squoosh it around some and get some juice to get an SG reading. Then sugar it up to 1.085 if necessary. Let sit for 12 hours on K meta.
-Add pectic enzyme. I got some liquid stuff from a winery near us by a company called BSG. It worked great on my last batch (plum wine) so I thought I'd use it again
-Make a yeast starter (did this for the first time with my plum batch and it worked great)
-Get PH, and titratable acidity (never done this before, going to order the supplies with other stuff for this batch)
-I've been using DAP. I'm going to switch to Fermaid K this time and use a split feeding schedule (as explained to me by Turock) 1/2 nutrient at the beginning of fermentation and the second half at 1/3 sugar reduction.
-Bentonite on 2nd or 3rd day
-Rack off to Carboy secondary at 1.020(?) or so

Here are some of the questions I have:

-PH & Titratable Acidity. From reading I've come up with the #'s of 3.3 for the ph, and .60-.65 for TA. Does that sound about right? Still not real clear on how to adjust those two. I do have tartaric acid. Do I need to order something else?

-Yeast, Montrachet or Cotes Des Blanc?

-Bentonite. I've never used it, does it just have directions on the package?

-Tannin. I've heard, use no tannin for peach, and then I see that some have used it. Why or why not?

Thanks for any help. I'm sure I'll reread this and think of a ton of things I forgot so forgive me if I update a bunch We're actually going on vacation in 2 weeks so I'll have time to order any supplies I need to get started upon our return.

CE

 

[Turock]

You have a good plan here. To clear up your questions: Let the ferment go to dry. Ideally, under 1.000. With your good nutrient program, it should go to dry with no problem.

On the PH---when we had this wine judged, they said it could have used a bit more acid. So what I would do is bench test samples at 3.2 and 3.3 PH and taste them. Go with the one that tastes the best to you. Here's how you adjust PH--if the PH is too high, add acid to bring it down. If it's too low, add calcium carbonate to raise the PH. Be very careful with calcium carbonate because it can move the PH too high if you use too much. If the PH is very low and far away from your target PH, use 1/4 tsp at a time. But if you are close to the PH, use something like an 1/8 if a tsp at a time--stir VERY well--walk away from it for 15-30 minutes then retest. You should be using a PH meter.

Use either Montrachet or the Cotes des Blanc. Montrachet is a big foamer so be sure you have some good headspace on the vat so it doesn't over-flow. Montrachet needs good nutrient support so it doesn't produce H2S. But with your nutrient program, this should not be an issue. The only reason your past ferment went south with H2S was because of not enough nutrient.

When using bentonite, you can use a light dose or a heavier dose. Light doses are for musts that aren't too viscous and maybe don't suffer from protein haze. But on peach, you'll want to use the heavier dose which is 2 Tbs. to 1 cup water per 5 gallons. Be sure it's smooth with no lumps--you can run it thru a blender. Don't use more than this, however, or else it can strip the flavor. The bentonite will help it clear better, prevent protein haze, and heat stabilize it so that you don't get haziness and precipitate in the bottle when you refrigerate it.

Tannin is a subjective thing. So if you think the juice tastes astringent enough when you're setting the PH, then don't use tannin. Fermenting on the skins seems to give some tannin to the wine. But if you want to use some tannin, go ahead and use it. Some extra tannin also acts to give some color stability as well.

Think about doing a cool ferment to retain volatiles. One easy way to do this is to set the vat in an old washtub and add water and ice to the tub. Keep the ferment around 70 degrees or under. You can hang a thermometer in the vat to watch the temp. Fermentation thermometers are cheap--Morewine sells them. Otherwise you can make some ice bombs ahead of time to toss in the ferment--pop bottles or milk jugs filled with water and frozen.

More questions? Let me know. Don't hesitate to PM me if you want to.

 

[cdevrard]

Turock,

Thank you very much. I was hoping that you would answer! You saved my batch of plum wine. After racking it off the Reduless it smells great and it is sitting behind me right now just doing its thing.

Thanks for the info on the PH. I have never done PH or TA testing before and I was just going to do ph strips and a morewine TA test kit like

http://morewinemaking.com/products/emmorewineem-acid-test-kit.html?site_id=5

And

http://morewinemaking.com/products/ph-36-strips.html?site_id=8

But you think the meter is a better way to go. The least damaging to my pocketbook seemed to be this tester at morewine

http://morewinemaking.com/products/ph-meter-phep-5.html?site_id=7

at about $125 after accounting for calibration and electrode storage solutions. I was hoping to spend this money on new glass carboys (been using plastic) and other ingredients/chemicals/necessaries this go around.

I get from reading that knowing your acid levels is paramount. And it also seems that knowing your PH is thought of as being more important than knowing TA. Would it be prudent to spend the extra $'s on a that PH tester and wait on the TA stuff?

As for yeast I think I'll try the Cotes Des Blanc based on the HS2 issues I've had in the past. I understand that the nutrient program should make it a non-issue but, once bitten (or 3 times) twice shy!

The info on doing a cool ferment is interesting too. My basement is pretty cool and I could do the secondary part down there. For the primary I think I'll try to find a tub and keep the bucket cool. I do have a infrared thermometer. Since that would only measure the surface temp, I was thinking of taking the readings after stirring the must.

My wife picked up 1/2 bushel of peaches last night and they weigh about 23 lbs. before destoning etc. so I will need at the very least another 1/2 bushel. Some of the peaches are not ripe yet. She say her father used to put them on the carport on newspaper until they ripened up. I worry about the fruit flies getting on them or critters eating them! How do you all let your peaches ripen up? Are fruit flies a problem? (assuming they don't get into your actual ferment bucket of course!)

Ok, I'll update as I progress. Thanks again.

CE

 

[ffemt128]

But you think the meter is a better way to go. The least damaging to my pocketbook seemed to be this tester at morewine

http://morewinemaking.com/products/ph-meter-phep-5.html?site_id=7

at about $125 after accounting for calibration and electrode storage solutions. I was hoping to spend this money on new glass carboys (been using plastic) and other ingredients/chemicals/necessaries this go around.
CE

Check around, my son bought mine new in the box on Amazon for around $89.00 and I'm pretty sure others have picked up the Milwalkee for around $100.

 

[Boatboy24]

Under $90 at Amazon - free shipping if you have Prime. Be sure to get the 4.01 and 7.01 calibration fluids and the storage solution. I tried to get by at first using single point calibration, and it was a little touchy. Once I started doing both, it calibrates and measures quickly.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...ps&field-keywords=phep 5&sprefix=phep,aps,611

 

[maurtis]

The only reason your past ferment went south with H2S was because of not enough nutrient.

Agreed, if you were only using DAP before which is a yeast energizer then unless your must had a lot a yeast nutrient you were stressing the yeast. Your plan to use Fermaid K (which I believe has both nutrient and a little DAP in it) with stepped feeding should definitely help.

I usually use a bit of both, some DAP in the beginning along with Fermaid K or Fermax and stepped feeding at the 1/3 sugar break with just the nutrient. So far no H2S issues, whereas before when adding it all at the beginning I would have a little H2S smell that needed a racking or two to get rid of.

Good luck! It sounds like you have a fine plan in mind.

 

[cdevrard]

Update:

-Was looking at one of the Millwaukee meters, but now I am kind of swayed toward the Hannah. Still pondering.

-Went ahead and laid the peaches out on the living room floor. Was chicken to leave them outside on the carport so I put a bed sheet on the living room floor and laid them out inside. 1/2 bushel was ripe and ready today so I destoned them put them in freezer bags and in they went. The other half will probably take another day or so to ripen. There are a few fruit flies in the house but there would be outside too so, oh well!

Thanks for all the help so far. As I mentioned before we are taking a vacation so I don't want to start this now and not have enough time to tend to it. I want to try the cool ferment that Turock suggested, and I am lucky enough to work from home so that shouldn't be a problem after our return.

 

[Turock]

Sorry, that I'm a little late getting back to you--sometimes I don't get all the way back to the country winemaking forum as I'm busy answering issues in other places. If you want my input--and hope that I will see the thread---just PM me. I don't allow e-mail settings on threads I answer because it's just too many and clogs up my inbox.

Ph is ALWAYS more important than TA--no matter what you're working with. And a little story is in order here. Back in "the old days" there was no such things as PH meters except for professional such as those involved in water treatment. So the only way to see what direction a must WAS--and indications on where to adjust--was TA. Now TA is not total acid--it is titratable acid. The acid that's available to react with sodium hydroxide. What you are doing is unhooking all the accessible hydrogens in the sample.

Now, there are free and bound hydrogen ions and the proportions vary greatly according to varietal, ripeness, and growing conditions, and so does the relationship between PH and TA. Ta and PH have no predicatable relationship. The best you can say is that higher TA is related to low PH and vice versa. Adjusting TA does not have any influence on taste--what influences the flavor is the changing of the PH. Because every winemaker now has accessibility to a PH meter, we should all throw out TA measurement and put more emphasis on PH along with tasting the results. You stop adjusting PH when it tastes good to you.

I've had alot of dialogue on this issue of TA and PH with a number of commercial winemakers in Calif. Most report that they have largely abandoned TA and don't even measure it anymore. They agree it is a left-over practice from the times when they did not have PH meters. So which measurement should you always take--the answer is PH. Ph is the strength of the acid--it has a powerful affect on the efficiency of SO2--prevents oxidation and bacterial infection. Need to know it in order to know how much sulfite you need for preservation. Need to know the number before doing MLF's as many MLB's can't work in a low PH wine. The PH is REALLY important!! I would also say that down the road, you really need to test SO2. So since you don't own a PH meter, maybe you should look at the Vinmetrica 200 which tests both. It also tests TA, by the way.

You can't prevent fruit flies. BUT--as soon as you bring the fruit in the house, start setting up traps in the winery to catch them. You can use some wine with a drop of dishsoap to break the surface tension so that they go down into the liquid and drown. Keep the traps going until you see no more--or else they will be celebrating spring with you and you'll never get rid of them because they breed and have babies very fast.

I'm glad to hear that the plum is fine. Glad to help you.

DAP is a fine nutrient--but it's all inorganic nitrogen. No matter which nutrient you use--just step-feed and you'll have no issues, as long as you're not dealing with a must that is very low on YAN.

Did I miss anything--don't hesitate to ask.

 

[cdevrard]

update

Well the peaches will have to wait in the freezer a few more days. I got my new supplies in the other day but the yeast was out of date. Brew & Wine Supply said they'd send out replacements no problem but they didn't have the Cote Des Blanc in stock so I opted for the D47 Lalvin just so I could get the show on the road.

D47 should be a good for this peach recipe, no?

I also opted for the Hannah PH meter and it came in yesterday along with all the solutions. Guess this weekend's reading material is accounted for in the form of a user's manual

I was dumb enough to forget to buy bungs for my new glass carboys so I'll be waiting for them too. Well, I was looking forward to starting the trial peach batch this weekend. Guess it'll wait until next weekend.

Thanks all,

CE

 

[cdevrard]

Yay, finally got started (kind of)

This won't be my main peach batch, but since I am trying so many new things this time I am doing a trial batch.

I had 20 lb. of peaches that wern't quite as good as the others so I froze them separately. To this I added 9 lb of pears which was the entire crop from our 2 year old pear tree

So I have
- 29 lb. peach pear mix
- when thawed it only made 2.75 gals of goop.
- I added 2 cans of welches white grape/peach concentrate and 1/2 gal of water. (I know I said no water!!! ah well)
-still wasn't happy with the volume as I want enough to fill my new 3 gal carboy with some extra for topping up. So, I watered up to 4 gal.
-SG was at 1.040
- added 2 lb of sugar and sg came up to 1.070. still a lot of pulp in there so I'm gonna let it sit at this level for a few more hours and test again assuming it will go down some. Eventually I'll bump it up to 1.085.
-Tested PH with brand new Hannah meter (just calibrated) and was at 3.72. I added 1/4 tsp of acid blend b/c I have no feel for how much acid to how much change in PH. Will check again after lunch and adjust as necessary, target being 3.3 / 3.2 depending on what tastes good.
-made a solution of K Meta and administered the correct dose for 4 Gals.

That is where I am now. I'll get the PH and Sugar adjusted throughout the day today. Tonight I'll get my yeast starter going (D47 Lalvin). Hopefully be ready to pitch in the morning tomorrow. I am going to try a cool ferment at Turock's suggestion. fortunately the house is cold (I hate turning on the heat before Nov!!!) enough to be a big help. Might not even need an ice bath.

Also I am waiting until I pitch the yeast to add the first half of the Fermaid K. Someone even recommended waiting until you see the first signs of a working ferment in your bucket. Anyone have an opinion on this?

Ok, that's it for now. Will report back!

CE

PS. Oh yeah, I will add pectic enzyme tonight when I make the yeast starter!

 

[cdevrard]

Noticing interesting results with the PH testing. The ph level keeps on "springing back" after an initial reading. So I've been making additions of acid blend, then stirring the must. Then I wait about 30 min or so before taking a reading and get my measurement. Last night I was at 3.30. This morning I was at 3.50. This has happened several times. My only guess is that the fruit in the bag is slowly sucking up some of the acid. Anyone else have a theory on this?

Well, the yeast starter is ready so I'm gonna pitch it this morning.

Thanks,

 

[cdevrard]

So the peach/pear is fermenting away. Last night I swear I smelled some HS2. I calculated my second Fermaid K addition at 1.055 SG, but I was only at 1.062 last night. I went ahead and added the nutrient anyhow. I also did a vigorous splash rack between two buckets. It seemed to smell better within a few minutes. This morning I did another splash rack. It isn't bad but I swear I can smell faint sulfur in the must. Although some of it is a yeasty smell too.

Do fruit wines always just have a tad of HS2 smell to them?

Anyhow, it is down to 1.036 now. I'm thinking tomorrow it'll be just about ready for the secondary.

Cheers..........

 

[cdevrard]

On to secondary

Well, this morning I was a SG 1.013. A little later than I had planned but oh well. Racked off into secondary. Got most of a 3 gallon carboy and most of a 1 gallon jug as planned. There is gonna be a lot of sediment though.

Lets see if I can get some pics up.

Thanks all.

CE

 

[cdevrard]

10-19-14 SG is down to 1.003 in each container. It got cold here yesterday so I wrapped each jug in a towel and set them on top of another. Temperature of wine this morning was 67.5* in the big bottle and 66.5* in the little bottle. I think that is still well within the limits for the yeast. They are still making teeny-tiny bubbles so the yeast is still working.

CE

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

CD, thanks for the heads up on the yeast, got it all pulled and some new on the way. We sell more Lalvin than we do Red Star. also went thru and checked all the others for the dates. We're good!
Thanks,
The peach looks good!

 

[cdevrard]

Doug, Thanks a million. I appreciate the prompt shipping and I am LOVING my new carboys!

CD, thanks for the heads up on the yeast, got it all pulled and some new on the way. We sell more Lalvin than we do Red Star. also went thru and checked all the others for the dates. We're good!
Thanks,
The peach looks good!

 

[cdevrard]

Stuck at 1.000/01

Ok, My fermentation has stopped at 1.001/00. I can never remember if I measure from the bottom or top of the miniscus (sp?) line.

Temps have remained at 67* for the bulk of the ferment including now. They did drop to 61/62* a few days back (still within rang of D47 according to Lalvin) but then I turned the house heat on to get them back to the 67* range.

So Starting at 1.085 I make this out to be 11% abv. Is this ok? Is it fine if the ferment just stops here? Or should I be trying to restart it to get the last few points toward .995ish?

Thanks!

CE

 

[cdevrard]

Well, I'm still at 1.000. I raised the temp to 70* but that hasn't seemed to do much. I had a huge amount of sediment in the bottles so I decided to rack again yesterday. I filtered 2 750ml wine bottles worth of wine out of the sediment. It took all day for gravity to do that. So now I have 1 3gal carboy and 2 wine bottles worth of goodies.

So far it smells and tastes pretty bad. Not "spoiled" bad, but just kind of sour. I guess we'll see. Now I plan on just leaving it alone for 3 mos or so before racking and K-meta-ing again.

 

[Deezil]

Ok, My fermentation has stopped at 1.001/00. I can never remember if I measure from the bottom or top of the miniscus (sp?) line.

The bottom, or lowest point of the meniscus.

Well, I'm still at 1.000. I raised the temp to 70* but that hasn't seemed to do much. I had a huge amount of sediment in the bottles so I decided to rack again yesterday. I filtered 2 750ml wine bottles worth of wine out of the sediment. It took all day for gravity to do that. So now I have 1 3gal carboy and 2 wine bottles worth of goodies.

So far it smells and tastes pretty bad. Not "spoiled" bad, but just kind of sour. I guess we'll see. Now I plan on just leaving it alone for 3 mos or so before racking and K-meta-ing again.

Looking good from here, it probably tastes and smells 'green' / young.. It took 18 months for my batch of Peach to really stand on its own; you couldnt open the bottle without knowing it was peach.. So give it time, it looks like you've put the work in, and it'll return the favor for sure