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Lalvin 71b-1122 and MLF question

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Dabillskid

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I have a amarone bulk aging and already sulfited it so it’s too late for MLF. I️ used this yeast to handle the Malic acid tartness. If this yeast uses Malic acid should that take care of the tartness since it uses it up? Not sure if this is similar to using MLF. I’m not familiar about how to MLF but next time maybe I️ should try it out? Might need some help when that time comes. I️ just ordered 10 gallons of Barolo. These are some of my favorite wines and I’m not sure if I should be MLF ing them? It also seems like I️ should have added some grape skins to my amarone but again I’m too a mature. I️ did get 13.5% alcohol so that should be ok for my first go at this. Thanks!!
 

BernardSmith

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My understanding is that 71B, as it ferments and as the wine ages will metabolize between 20-40% of the malic acid transforming it into lactic acid. This is not the bacterial action found in MLF but the yeast does reduce the tartness of the wine (or cider, malic being the dominant acid found in apples) as lactic acid is not as strong as malic
 

dralarms

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I use 71b-1122 for all my fruit wines. It really does smooth things out. Didn't really know why but I guess now I do.
 

sour_grapes

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Dabillskid, are you talking about kit wines? If so, you shouldn't ever try to MLF them.

@BernardSmith , I don't think 71B turns malic into lactic. I think it just metabolizes it completely. It is MLF bacteria that turn malic into lactic.

Edit: fixed a misstatement that Dabillskid replied to below.
 
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Dabillskid

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Dabillskid, are you talking about kit wines? If not, you shouldn't ever try to MLF them.

@BernardSmith , I don't think 71B turns malic into lactic. I think it just metabolizes it completely. It is MLF bacteria that turn malic into lactic.
I’m using fresh juice so not a kit. This is good to know. Can you possibly explain why to not MLF fresh juice? Thanks!
 

sour_grapes

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I’m using fresh juice so not a kit. This is good to know. Can you possibly explain why to not MLF fresh juice? Thanks!
Ooops, I typed my answer in a rush and made a grammatical mistake that changed my meaning. I meant that you should not try to MLF a kit. You are free to MLF a juice bucket. (I will edit my original post.)

My understanding is that kits are buffered and acid-balanced, so conducting MLF will leave a very unbalanced product.
 

ceeaton

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Ooops, I typed my answer in a rush and made a grammatical mistake that changed my meaning. I meant that you should not try to MLF a kit. You are free to MLF a juice bucket. (I will edit my original post.)

My understanding is that kits are buffered and acid-balanced, so conducting MLF will leave a very unbalanced product.
I agree with @sour_grapes as far as don't do a kit, but juice buckets are fair game. I have never done a juice only bucket, as far as MLF goes, but have done several buckets + fresh grapes and the end product seems good to me (and my wife, which is very important to me). Whether they are out of balance or not depends on the taster, I guess. Most seem to like my wine, but we may be venturing into "all free wine is good wine" territory with their positive comments.

Edit: got the right sour_grapes now...
 
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sour_grapes

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By the way @ceeaton , I have an underscore in my name: @sour_grapes . There are other members with similar names! In particular, no-underscore sourgrapes is probably wondering why the sudden blitz of mentions!? :)
 

ceeaton

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By the way @ceeaton , I have an underscore in my name: @sour_grapes . There are other members with similar names! In particular, no-underscore sourgrapes is probably wondering why the sudden blitz of mentions!? :)
Ha! Don't tell my wife I did that. I am constantly on her for using the wrong ceeaton email address, she keeps using a ceaton, and I know some of the racy stuff she sends me at times. Hopefully the ceaton is a Carol or Constance and not a Chris or Charles...
 

BernardSmith

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[QUOTE


@BernardSmith , I don't think 71B turns malic into lactic. I think it just metabolizes it completely. It is MLF bacteria that turn malic into lactic.

[/QUOTE]

I dunno, the spec sheet for 71B states that this yeast metabolizes between 20 and 40% of malic acid transforming it into lactic. I don't have the chemistry background to agree or disagree only to quote and cite. and I do know that over time apple cider and apple wine tastes incredibly smoother when fermented using 71B...
 

LoveTheWine

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[/QUOTE]

I dunno, the spec sheet for 71B states that this yeast metabolizes between 20 and 40% of malic acid transforming it into lactic. I don't have the chemistry background to agree or disagree only to quote and cite. and I do know that over time apple cider and apple wine tastes incredibly smoother when fermented using 71B...[/QUOTE]



Can you post this spec sheet? All that I have ever seen is that it metabolizes the Malic, never seen any mention of Lacic acid
 

ceeaton

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I dunno, the spec sheet for 71B states that this yeast metabolizes between 20 and 40% of malic acid transforming it into lactic. I don't have the chemistry background to agree or disagree only to quote and cite. and I do know that over time apple cider and apple wine tastes incredibly smoother when fermented using 71B...



Can you post this spec sheet? All that I have ever seen is that it metabolizes the Malic, never seen any mention of Lacic acid
I don't think it goes to Lactic acid when yeast metobolizes Malic. Try reading this and let us know what happens....

http://www.sawislibrary.co.za/dbtextimages/saaymanm.pdf
 

sour_grapes

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I dunno, the spec sheet for 71B states that this yeast metabolizes between 20 and 40% of malic acid transforming it into lactic. I don't have the chemistry background to agree or disagree only to quote and cite. and I do know that over time apple cider and apple wine tastes incredibly smoother when fermented using 71B...
I checked the spec sheet and other sources before posting my first message. Nowhere could I find the word "lactic" other than as part of the phrase "facilitates malolactic fermentation" (by being a low sulfite producer). See, for example, the spec sheet here: https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheets/Yeast - Lalvin 71B.pdf
 

BigH

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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I was researching this very topic while preparing for harvest this year. This article may shed some light

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39a8/dd3eb30b570040e9c7701f860eb652079b03.pdf

In their study, 71B and ICV-GRE each consumed malic acid (33% and 18% respectively) without producing any lactic acid. The subsequent MLF converted the remaining malic acid to lactic acid. So 71B's consumption of malic acid is not equivalent to MLF.

This does beg the question by products are created when 71B's metabolizes malic acid. According to the article below, the answer is alcohol

https://res.mdpi.com/fermentation/fermentation-03-00051/article_deploy/fermentation-03-00051.pdf?filename=&attachment=1

Here is a snippet.

Yeast also has the capability to consume malic acid by converting it into ethanol through malo-ethanolic deacidification. This microbiological process can cause a small increase in the wine’s alcohol content; but, sometimes this is preferred over the aroma and flavor of lactic acid produced by lactic acid bacteria
H
 
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Ajmassa

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Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I was researching this very topic while preparing for harvest this year. This article may shed some light

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39a8/dd3eb30b570040e9c7701f860eb652079b03.pdf

In their study, 71B and ICV-GRE each consumed malic acid (33% and 18% respectively) without producing any lactic acid. The subsequent MLF converted the remaining malic acid to lactic acid. So 71B's consumption of malic acid is not equivalent to MLF.

This does beg the question by products are created when 71B's metabolizes malic acid. According to the article below, the answer is alcohol

https://res.mdpi.com/fermentation/fermentation-03-00051/article_deploy/fermentation-03-00051.pdf?filename=&attachment=1

Here is a snippet.


H
With the info you found I’d say it was totally worth the bump!
I was thinking about this just recently and wondered how the final products differ. 30% less concerted lactic
Given both scenarios- Neither have the harsh malic acids at all, but the 71b also lacks the subtle lactic- and with the higher abv I would assume this would give you a ‘bigger/bolder’ wine. Maybe adding some time to the aging process too? This sound right?
The yeast I planned on using states it also eats up at least 30% malic. Renascence Andante.
 

BigH

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Given both scenarios- Neither have the harsh malic acids at all, but the 71b also lacks the subtle lactic- and with the higher abv I would assume this would give you a ‘bigger/bolder’ wine. Maybe adding some time to the aging process too? This sound right?
71B + MLF will certainly produce less total lactic acid than a yeast that metabolizes very little malic acid that is followed with the same MLF regiment (that finishes to completion). I don't know how important that is when it comes to high acid grapes where 71B is an attractive option. For those grapes, you are starting with so much malic acid that the MLF will still have plenty to munch on.

You are correct about the higher ABV. This is something I am struggling to factor in. My La Crescent grapes will come in with a pH around 3.0, TA north of 12.0 and sugar at 25 brix. That wine will already be pretty hot without 71B. How do I calculate the amount of extra alcohol I will get if my yeast metabolizes malic acid into ethanol? I am thinking that amelioration with water may be in order. fwiw, I am not planning MLF for this wine, so 71B or a similar yeast will be my only tool to reduce the amount of malic acid.

As for the aging question, I don't have enough experience to answer that.

H
 
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