MLF with little to no malic acid

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Silva070

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Hey All!

This is my first of what will likely be many posts here as i dig deeper into this new hobby. I had a question regarding MLF and what the effects would be of not doing it. Im trying to get as close to the bold and rich red wine style with vegetables that have little to no malic acid. It may not be possible and I'm just being naive but I thought it would be fun to try! I read that adding malic acid wouldn't be the same as it would be D-malic and not L-malic.. thus not allowing MLF to occur. My question is.. is this even a necessity or could I get close to that red wine feel with the addition of tannins and maybe tartaric acid alone? A secondary question is regarding yeast selection and how much that would contribute to achieving the right taste/ feeling? Do any of y'all have any experience trying to make wines that are closer to dry reds without the use of grapes? If so any advice for this newbie would be greatly appreciated!!
 
If your source fruit has little or no malic acid, then there is no reason to try to do MLF. It converts the Malic acid to a different kind of Acid, and since there is none to convert... I think you are fighting a losing battle trying to make a non-grape wine taste like a grape wine. You might be able to approximate it with getting the PH in the correct range to start (3.4-3.8) and the TA appropriate for the kinds of wine youo like around .65 for reds, then age the heck out of that wine in a barrel to gain some concentration effects, but I am doubtful that it will approach a bold, rich, red wine.
 
Okay thats more of the clear answer I was hoping for. I’ll avoid messing around with it for this. I recently made a batch where the starting PH of the must was around 5.8.. so I dropped it down to the 3.4 area with tartaric but the end result seemed to be a bit too tart. Could driving the PH down that much with just tartaric have a negative effect like this?
 
Okay thats more of the clear answer I was hoping for. I’ll avoid messing around with it for this. I recently made a batch where the starting PH of the must was around 5.8.. so I dropped it down to the 3.4 area with tartaric but the end result seemed to be a bit too tart. Could driving the PH down that much with just tartaric have a negative effect like this?

Adding that much acid of any sort will cause your ta to go high, hence the tart taste. Back sweetening is probably the answer now.
 
What you are dealing with if you developed a tart taste is a high Titratable Acidity. ,,ie total grams of acid per liter of wine. For your next batch with pH 5 fruit you could try a strong acid as reagent grade phosphoric. Water is transparent to acids buffering, diluting the fruit will let you achieve lower pH with less acid. Beer does pH adjustment with gypsum however wines have enough solids that you might need 100 or 500 grams to see an effect with a carboy. Industrial systems can afford a deionizing column and beyond that we don’t have a lot of choices.
An easy fix for tart wine is adding sugar. The flavor balance is a linear effect. For the wine there is no negative from using tartaric. Of the available food acids tartaric has a less sharp, more pleasing flavor. You mentioned adding tannin, flavor wise a tannin will increase the acidic sensation and again can be balanced with added sugar. An up side on tannin (and deep red fruit pigments) is that polyphenols are antioxidants, so you could shift your pH target higher, ,, red grape survives pH up to 3.8.
This graphic shows how flavor balances: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/thre...y-suppliers.73427/#lg=attachment81200&slide=0
Okay thats more of the clear answer I was hoping for. I’ll avoid messing around with it for this. I recently made a batch where the starting PH of the must was around 5.8.. so I dropped it down to the 3.4 area with tartaric but the end result seemed to be a bit too tart. Could driving the PH down that much with just tartaric have a negative effect like this?
I have the impression that you are trying something similar to how I put last years mulberry together. This test got 85% phosphoric and tannin. Buffering, ie having high fruit solids is the limitation in copying the kind of product red grape makes. When you pull things apart red grape is fairly thin. Humm we can toss in gum arabic to build mouth feel. ? what fruit did you try?

Welcome to Wine Making Talk
 
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What you are dealing with if you developed a tart taste is a high Titratable Acidity. ,,ie total grams of acid per liter of wine. For your next batch with pH 5 fruit you could try a strong acid as reagent grade phosphoric. Water is transparent to acids buffering, diluting the fruit will let you achieve lower pH with less acid. Beer does pH adjustment with gypsum however wines have enough solids that you might need 100 or 500 grams to see an effect with a carboy. Industrial systems can afford a deionizing column and beyond that we don’t have a lot of choices.
An easy fix for tart wine is adding sugar. The flavor balance is a linear effect. For the wine there is no negative from using tartaric. Of the available food acids tartaric has a less sharp, more pleasing flavor. You mentioned adding tannin, flavor wise a tannin will increase the acidic sensation and again can be balanced with added sugar. An up side on tannin (and deep red fruit pigments) is that polyphenols are antioxidants, so you could shift your pH target higher, ,, red grape survives pH up to 3.8.
This graphic shows how flavor balances: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/thre...y-suppliers.73427/#lg=attachment81200&slide=0
I have the impression that you are trying something similar to how I put last years mulberry together. This test got 85% phosphoric and tannin. Buffering, ie having high fruit solids is the limitation in copying the kind of product red grape makes. When you pull things apart red grape is fairly thin. Humm we can toss in gum arabic to build mouth feel. ? what fruit did you try?

Welcome to Wine Making Talk
Y’all are a wealth of knowledge! I was doing carrots, so with a root vegetable I’m sure I’m being ambitious trying to make a decent tasting wine. With this I was juicing them and basically adding all of this juice to the must which now that you mention it, is much thicker than grape juice. I’m wondering now if I should have tried diluting it with water a bit because the end result wasn’t as smooth from a texture standpoint as I would have liked and it would solve my acidic problem. Or am I misunderstanding and adding water to the must before fermentation would just raise my PH and then I need to add just as much tartaric acid to bring it down to a good level?
 
Y’all are a wealth of knowledge! I was doing carrots, so with a root vegetable I’m sure I’m being ambitious trying to make a decent tasting wine
You can make a drinkable product, but it's probably not going to taste quite like any other wine. This is not a bad thing, but it's the likelihood.

I suggest you search for "carrot wine recipe", and read numerous recipes. It's easy to find bad recipes, so reading multiple ones helps sort them out. When you find something, post again, and experienced folks can provide advice on what's workable.
 
If your source fruit has little or no malic acid, then there is no reason to try to do MLF. It converts the Malic acid to a different kind of Acid, and since there is none to convert... I think you are fighting a losing battle trying to make a non-grape wine taste like a grape wine. You might be able to approximate it with getting the PH in the correct range to start (3.4-3.8) and the TA appropriate for the kinds of wine youo like around .65 for reds, then age the heck out of that wine in a barrel to gain some concentration effects, but I am doubtful that it will approach a bold, rich, red wine.

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You're spot on there C Mason. A lot of Grape wine only people expect all wines to taste like a grape wine and just reject any other kind. I once took a bottle of Apple wine along to a party. A self called wine connoisseur accused me of trying to cheat because the recycled bottle it was in was a German Mosel bottle. I don't know why, but he got a bit upset when I walked away laughing. :D
 
A basic wine is a transparent liquid with aromatics combined with acid notes (flavor/ microbial preservative) and enough alcohol (over 10%) to keep out micro issues.
Carrot; my numbers on carrot are pH 6.21 and TA 0.06%(.60 gm/ liter). ,,,, I have not played with it enough to fill a gravity cylinder. The suspended solids should be removed before the wine is finished, ,,, basically gravity does that after a few months, BUT the yield may be low/ you might speed the settling by adding bentonite ASAP. My approach with carrot would be to steam the roots whole > press a juice out of the roots > mix the carrot with 5 to 10% lemon juice (this will add acid notes and some aromatics but not be high enough to overpower the carrot) > build the must with sugar/ adjust pH/ nutrients etc > ferment.
Water? As a company person everything has it, water cuts cost of goods. Water is transparent except for a trace of minerals. ,,,, As a home wine maker I avoid water since it reduces total flavor. What I try to do is add a high acid source and a high aromatic source and high sugar and stable color to build the finished product. With my style I would add apple juice or white grape or pear juice since they hide in the background yet provide some yeast nutrients/ sugar/ body. The 5% lemon is close enough to carrot that it should also hide in a mix To put carrot on the label I would keep that at 50% of a blend. Carrot is not a dominant flavor so it will be easy to lose carrot identity. ,,,,, I test flavor combinations before tieing up a carboy for a few months.
I was doing carrots, so with a root vegetable I’m sure I’m being ambitious trying to make a decent tasting wine. With this I was juicing them and basically adding all of this juice to the must which now that you mention it, is much thicker than grape juice. I’m wondering now if I should have tried diluting it with water a bit because the end result wasn’t as smooth from a texture standpoint as I would have liked and it would solve my acidic problem. Or am I misunderstanding and adding water to the must before fermentation would just raise my PH and then I need to add just as much tartaric acid to bring it down to a good level?
 
Thank you all for the various tips!! I’ll definitely be experimenting more with recipes out there and some of the variables yall have suggested. Because I’m new to this Im a bit overhwhelmed with all of the variables that could be having an effect on the perceived tartness. The batch I just made did have a slight vinegary/ kombucha taste to it. Would this mean I had acetic acid? Is there a way to test and confirm for sure or am I just going to have to wait and see if it becomes more pronounced in the wine over time? I did have a bit of headspace left in the carbon while it was clearing. I also used fresh vegetables and didn’t do an initial dose of k meta. When preparing the must do y’all typically dose with k meta before adding the yeast? Ive read some add 24 hours before pitching the yeast but didn’t want to do anything that could hurt the fermentation before it even starts.
 

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