KNOW WHAT YOU ARE USING?

[Waldo]

One of the greatest dangers facing home winemaking and ensuring failure of successfully making good wines is proper cleaning and sanitizing. We are fortunate here on the forum in having the expertise of many good wine makers and that coupled with Georges expertise, honesty and helpfulness can ensure success every time. IF WE WILL PAY ATTENTION and if in doubt...ASK as I recently did. Long story shortened, there are chemicals being sold out there, purported to be sanitizers when in fact they are not. I found an auction on e-bay that was actually selling B-Brite and C-Brite as sanitizers. I googled both and amazingly I found several Web sites that was selling C-Brite as a sanitizer. A couple of which I will share here.



http://www.homebrewingsupplies.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=717


http://www.wineartindy.com/cbritecleaner.html


http://www.crosby-baker.com/products.php?cat=108


A couple of e-mails later with George and his referral to me of an article he did in his newsletter in AprilI decided it was worth posting here on the forum, especially for newbies as a word of caution about ensuring that you are cleaning and sanitizing your equipment properly. If you have not read Georges April article I would strongly recommend you do so. Just click on the "April" link above. Edited by: Waldo

 

[smurfe]

Good post Waldo. I will add though that some of these products more than likely are indeed sanitizers but the manufactures did not want to spend the thousands of dollars to get their product classified as a sanitizer. We had a thread about this a while back.


If you remember, I used to use Easy Clean as a sanitizer. The package said it was a sanitizer. I used this product because that was what was included in my starter pack from George. It said sanitizer right on the bottle. When the sample was gone I bought a big bottle of it. Probably the first 10 kits I made I used this product for sanitation and have had no issues other than the discoloration it does to my hoses.


Now, I am not advocating that this is indeed a sanitizer and after that discussion I quit using it as a sanitizer and switched to Sodium Metabisulfate which is so much cheaper. I am just saying that per the manufacturers, some of these products are indeed sanitizing products. I still have to recommend using products that have been verified as indeed sanitizers.I now use the Easy Clean as a cleaner and the Na Meta to sanitize.


I wouldn't go dumping my wine if I realized that I used one of these other products as a sanitizer until it is indeed found bad. You will know if the wine goes bad. I have only posted this in case there are newer winemaker members here that might of used one of these products to sanitize with and are now stressing out thinking they will have a contaminated product. Have patients and let time decide.


Smurfe

 

[smurfe]

Another thing I forgot to add. Isn't C-Brite chlorine based? How much chlorine is in it? Is there enough to indeed make it a sanitizer? I know it don't take much. For example, at work we have to sanitize all of the drinking cups the kids use. We can not wash them in a dishwasher unless it is a commercial dishwasher. Just think, you home dishwasher will not sanitize (yuk).


Anyway, we have 2 large commercial sinks in our kitchen area. I don't know their capacity but are around the size of the ones BillB posted here a while back. We add one cupful of bleach to an almost full sink to reach a concentration level that will sanitize as determined by testing strips. I also add this because some do use bleach to sanitize and it don't take much at all. Anyway, I wonder if C-Brite has enough chlorine to truly sanitize or not? Na Meta is still cheaper though and we know it works fine.


Smurfe

 

[Dean]

C-Brite is a sanitizer, however, it requires a 20 minute contact to be effective. The nice thing about C-Brite is that it is also a mild detergent. But I sure in heck would not call it "no-rinse"!

Get it near your corks for some nice TCA (Cork taint), make you wines smell like the local public pool, etc. I do use it to clean though. I've used it to sanitize beer making stuff as well. The trick is to know to let it sit IN the solution for 20 minutes.

 

[geocorn]

C-Brite has changed its label. It used to read "Cleanser/Sanitizer". Now it reads "Cleanser". You make the call.

 

[PeterZ]

OK, I hate to do it, but I must explode some brains again.

"Sanitizer" is a legal term regulated by the the government. There are several classes if sanitizer, but the one we are interested in is "hard surface sanitizer." In order to be labeled (under USEPA law) as a hard surface sanitizer, a product must, at label rates, kill 99.999% (5 log reduction) of all bacteria on a surface in 60 seconds. Strong oxidizers, iodine (betadiene), and some quaternary ammonium compounds fall in this class. Let's look at each.

Oxidizers. B-brite and C-brite are in this class. I know C-brite is a chlorine donor, because I have some and can look at the label for its active ingredient. The recommended strength does not rise to sanitizer levels, but is is still good at killing bacteria. It is popular as a chlorine donor in swimming pools. It is easily rinsed off of hard surfaces.

Iodine compounds. This is what they paint all over your skin before surgery. Works great, and is easily rinsed out. Tastes terrible. Always rinse with potable water before contact with your wine.

Quats. This is what hospitals use to swab down operating rooms. Also used in swimming pools. Big problem for us - hard to rinse (kind of soapy) with an off taste. You can identify a quat by looking at the active ingredient. It will end in "ammonium chloride" and be a big long chemical name.

My favorite pool product - the most expensive and best pool algecide on the market is Poly[oxy-ethylene-di-methyl-iminio-ethylene-dimethyi-iminio-ethylene] dichloride. I know, it doesn't end in ammonium chloride, but the sanitizers do.

Sulfites are not sanitizers in the legal sense of the word. They do not kill anything. So why do we winemakers call them sanitizers? Because virtually all of the organisms that can hurt our wine require oxygen to grow, and sulfites strip the oxygen from the environment. Sulfites are reducing agents and act as follows (I will use K-meta as the example here, but just subistute Na for K for sodium metabisulfite):

K2S2O5 is K-meta crystals. When dissolved in water it becomes:

K2S2O5 + H2O --> 2(KHSO3) potassium bisulfite; which dissociates into:

K+ + H+ + SO3-2

This compound has about the same acidity as wine, so it fits right in. Now, here's the kicker:

2 x SO3-2 + O2 --> 2 x SO4-

What the sulfite has done is strip the dissolved oxygen out of the water, rendering the bad organisms unable to act. Without oxygen dissolved in the wine Acetobacter can do nothing. There could be millions of cells, but they would be inactive.

The inverse is yeast. Over-sulfiting a must before pitching the yeast will not kill the yeast, it will just prevent it from reproducing. If you want to prove this just take 750 ml of must, over-sulfite it, bottle it, put in some yeast, put a fermentation lock on it, and leave it for 5 years. Eventually it will ferment to dryness.

I'll have more later, but right now I want another glass of wine - and my fingers are fumbling.

 

[Wade E]

I'm still trying to digest this!

I think I better go back to school!

 

[geocorn]

Well that clears that up!

 

[sangwitch]

That's why you don't stick your nose into a container of k-meta solution and take a whiff to see if it's still active!


I read somewhere else as well that the reason C-Brite removed the word "sanitizer" was because of the USEPA law and not because it didn't kill beasties. Hmmm... How about "CYA" and use both?


Waldo - thanks for putting this out there. Bringing this up every once in a while is a great service to the community I say. And PeterZ - thanks for the lesson!

 

[PolishWineP]

Wow! I read all of that stuff Peter posted and my brains are still in tact! Very good!

Thanks for the post.

 

[Waldo]

Yeahhhhhhhh!!! Now I understand.

 

[grapeman]

So if I read this clearly, we aren't strictly sanitizing the bottles when we rinse them with K-Meta. We are only applying a quick surface that restricts the microbial growth until the wine is put in the bottle with the sulphites in it to restrict their growth further?

 

[Francie]

Okay, what about One Step? I use that to clean AND sanitize. This was recommended by my local shop guy.


Francie

 

[smurfe]

Okay, what about One Step? I use that to clean AND sanitize. This was recommended by my local shop guy.


Francie

Francie. I have anduse both Easy Clean and One Step. Both jars I have say on th label that theyare cleaners and sanitizers but it appears they have take the term Sanitizer off of them recently. I really can't tell the difference between the two products either and actually wonder if they aren't the same thing packaged by different vendors.


It is your call though. Like I said, I used these products to clean and sanitize for quite a while before we had a discussion here before about them. The only real reason I switched to Sulfite's was the cost difference. I still use the other products for cleaning and in my opinion and this is my opinion only, I have no fears that the products did indeed do a good job cleaning and sanitizing but remember, this is only my opinion and my wine to chance spoiling, not yours.


Smurfe

 

[Francie]

Hey Smurfe,


Thank you for the quick response and I definately want to take in into consideration!! It does get very costly!!!


Francie

 

[PeterZ]

Sorry about that, my friends. I spent 20+ years in industrial water treatment chemistry.

sang - that's exactly what I do. I rince everything with a solution of C-Brite, followed by a solution of K-meta. The C-brite, being an oxidizer like oxygen can spoil wine, but the K-meta neutrailzes it.

The whole "sanitizer" thing is more about law than performance. Any chemical (or anything else) that claims to kill or control any living organism must be registered with the USEPA. This is NOT cheap. The paperwork requirements alone are a nightmare. In addition, the label requirements are very specific. Look at the label on any weed killer or bug killer you happen to have around. All of that information is not there because it is interesting, it's there because the USEPA requires it. Can you see a label like that on C-brite?

Every chemical sold in the US must be listed on one of two inventories - TSCA (Toxic Substances Control Act) or FIFRA (Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act). FIFRA is the one the EPA manages, and covers sanitizers, among other things. TSCA is for all other chemicals. [I never understood why anything that is a "chemical" is considered "toxic" by Washington. NaCl (table salt)? H2O (water)? They are both on the list. DIHYDROGEN OXIDE KILLS AND MAIMS HUNDREDS EVERY YEAR!!! BAN IT!!!]

The real trick is that many chemicals are on both lists. Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) is the perfect example. When sold to sterilize things, it must have all that labelling, and is subject to extensive record keeping and reporting requirments under FIFRA. When sold to brighten your wash it falls under TSCA and needs no special activity.

Yes, you guessed it sports fans, NaOCl is bleach.

The reason all of our sanitizers are removing "sanitizer" from their labels is to avoid the EPA requirements. Truth be told, the cheapest sanitizer you can get is the cheapest generic bleach at the grocery store. A couple of tablespoons per quart of water will make a good sanitizer. Then follow it up with a K-meta solution rinse and you are good to go.

 

[Wade E]

Dont say your sorry, we love the info, but we do like to joke about
becuase some of it is over our (or at least mine) head. But if you keep
beating it into my head I'll eventually learn it. @0 years in water
treatment huh, what do you do know or are you still in it?

 

[Bill B]

As mentioned in a post a while back I use a tablet form of saniitizer called
<DIV SuperAdBlocker_DIV_Elements="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMove_Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker__Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker_DIV_FirstLook="0">STERAMINE This is a multi purpose sanitizer(epa reg. no. 1561.11) which I buy at a restaurant supply store. 1 TAB per gal of water for SANITIZING food contact surfaces such as dishes, glasses, utensuls. This is that BlUE liquid you offen see in a bar sink. Each bottle contains 150 tabs. cost about $7.00. This product only require 1 min contact time although they say to air dry, most restaurants and bars dont have the time if busy. I CLEAN with B-brite rince then SANITIZE and rince again. This is very fast and easy. More info at http://www.sanitize.com
<DIV SuperAdBlocker_DIV_Elements="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMove_Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker__Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker_DIV_FirstLook="0">Bill

 

[Angell Wine]

DIHYDROGEN OXIDE KILLS AND MAIMS HUNDREDS EVERY YEAR!!! BAN IT!!!]
Too much of this chemical in a controlled setting would make my property taxes go up. Edited by: Angell Wine

 

[grapeman]

That's funny Angell!

We have that problem up here with taxes. Any good lot next to the H20 makes the taxes go up a lot. Even a view of it makes them rise.


Does that mean that any dammed river or lakeshould be considered a controlled substance?