Hole is dug for our new wine cellar

[cimbaliw]

Is there an opportunity to use a small vertical geothermal system here?

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Sounds like Seth - majors in Math !! My son is the same way - I tell him that is why GOD gave us 10 toes and 10 fingers so we can count in tens -LOL

doesn't a small vertical geothermal system produce alot of moisture also ?

 

[novalou]

Yeah, something else to consider is that when doing overall R value calculations you need to treat them like resistors in a circuit.. So if their is an alternative route for the heat to get in you treat the two different paths for heat to get in as parallel resistors (add the inverses and take the inverse of the sum) while if their is only 1 path you treat them like series resistors ( Ie add them up). So what this means is that you really need to make sure that you make sure that you do not have any major weak spots for heat to get in else it will pretty much negate the places that are very well insulated.

You are forgetting area. Even if there is a weak spot, if the area is small, the heat transfer will be small.

In Sammy's case, not nearly enough insulation on the roof of the cellar.

 

[DaveL]

Sammy and I beat the frost line to death. We disagree. Thats OK. We still talk wine and if we ever drink a beer together it would be a fun topic. lol
The cellar is looking good Sammy.
Maybe when backfilling you might consider placing 2 inch hardboard insulation around the top 2 feet of the walls against the wall and over the rroof concrete under the dirt. When it is warm it will help keep the cellar cool. 4-5 inches of dirt and 6 inches of concrete is a relatively low R value I believe.

Hmmm Ithought this conversation sounded familiar.

 

[Sammyk]

Dave I did pass the information on to the contractor about the insulation early on. For some reason he seemed bent on doing things his way and in his own time. I took him 3 weeks just to get the darn door caulked. We originally thought the heat was coming from the cracks around the door. He was supposed to caulk around the door and fix the door because it was hard to open because it was "sticking". We fixed the door yesterday and changed the locks so it no longer sticks.

We do greatly appreciate all the suggestions, researching and help from the forum. You guys have been the best!

 

[seth8530]

WTF did you just say? HUH? Seth, it's hard to take you serious with that crown on and not laugh. :O Whatever you said it sounds good to me!

Hehe, I try not to take myself to seriously ya know lol. Now bow... Your king commands it!

Sounds like Seth - majors in Math !! My son is the same way - I tell him that is why GOD gave us 10 toes and 10 fingers so we can count in tens -LOL

doesn't a small vertical geothermal system produce alot of moisture also ?

Engineering not math (; heh the base 10 finger toe system is why god loves the metric system and hates the imperial system of units. Its great that your son is comfortable with math though.. It can really help you out in a lot of useful things.

You are forgetting area. Even if there is a weak spot, if the area is small, the heat transfer will be small.

In Sammy's case, not nearly enough insulation on the roof of the cellar.

Yes, I do believe that you are correct about area being important. One thing to remember is that cross sectional area is what matters when coming up with the overall heat resistance from multuple heat paths.. I wish I had my book with me.... However, the point remains if you have a bunch of small weakly resisted paths for heat to get in whose summed area is considerable it will hose your insulation job...

Point is, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you do a really good job insulating one part of the cellar and then a not so hot job on say the roof or somewhere else.

 

[DaveL]

Dave I did pass the information on to the contractor about the insulation early on. For some reason he seemed bent on doing things his way and in his own time. I took him 3 weeks just to get the darn door caulked. We originally thought the heat was coming from the cracks around the door. He was supposed to caulk around the door and fix the door because it was hard to open because it was "sticking". We fixed the door yesterday and changed the locks so it no longer sticks.

We do greatly appreciate all the suggestions, researching and help from the forum. You guys have been the best!

I know, just rying to bring some levity to your misery. Just remember you still have the beginning of a nice cellar, just need to tune it up a bit

 

[jswordy]

Is there an opportunity to use a small vertical geothermal system here?

That thought crossed my mind too, but they are expensive to install. My BIL is a HVAC contractor and does install these, so I know. They pay off well but high initial cost.

It may have been possible to install a cold water loop when the unit was under construction. A loop of PEX is made in the ground deep and water is pumped through it by a small pump so it then cools a radiator in the building. Work the same as a/c and does remove humidity.

That's all over now. I still say properly insulating the upper 2-3 feet of the sides and the top of the structure will do the trick. I think many people, myself included, were talking about insulation early on in the planning. Sammy's far better off with a passive system that requires zero upkeep, expense and maintenance if it's possible.

 

[jswordy]

They make bags to hang in closets where humidity is a problem. I can't remember what they are called but we will pick up some tomorrow. As it collects the humidity the bag fills with water. Then you throw them away and replace. Not expensive at all.

You can also get this as a bucket-type arrangement, which has more capacity. Example: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029EGUNG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 Still, it is an expense. The humidity may actually decrease after the concrete is fully cured. Did the contractor lay down a plastic base before pouring the floor? Did he spray-seal the outside of the walls? If he did those both, you have a good chance the humidity will decrease as the concrete cures, which may take up to a year.

If he did nothing on the floor, but just poured onto the dirt or a sand or gravel base, that concrete will wick and pass through humidity forever. I know this stuff because I have built garages for collector cars, where wicked humidity through the floor can rust and destroy valuable autos.

 

[Sammyk]

He did put down plastic but we don't recall if it was on top or under the gravel. The outside was painted with seal coat with a brush. Something weird I just thought of. They tarred the outside walls and then put plastic over it. There was rain after and there was moisture under the plastic where they and not back filled the sides with dirt. He did not think it was a problem but we did. I am thinking it was the top 2' that had moisture on the plastic and that had not yet been back-filled. Now I wonder if that is the source of the humidity inside.

 

[Sammyk]

Jim the Damp Rid was what I was thinking. And I forgot to get it while we were out today. We did get the foam core, 2 inches thick. Only had room for enough for the front wall in the van so we will have to make another trip. The fellow at Lowe's said we could always add another 3/4 inch if we have hot spots as detected by the heat sensing gun.

 

[Sammyk]

We need to ask for help again

We are using "liquid nails" to try to place the foam core board and it is not holding. We tried placing the sheets both ways; shiny side to the cement and Styrofoam to the cement and it will not hold. How the heck do you put that stuff up.

Not going well at all here, the wine cellar was 74 degrees this morning so it is gradually picking up heat.

 

[Runningwolf]

Liquid nails has always worked well for me. Did you try bracing it after standing the sheets up on the wall. You could have easily put braces from wall to wall with some 1x3's.

 

[Sammyk]

We are about to give up

Have most of the insulation up. Temp this morning was 75 degrees in the cellar.

Outside it was 64 at 6:30am so we setup 2 fans inside, one to suck out the warm air and one to blow in the cooler air.

It occurred to us this morning because there is no vent, the foam core could very well be trapping the warm air inside.

It has been one problem after another and many trips to Lowe's. First for different glue and more sheets of foam core. Then a diamond tip drill bit. The ceiling foam board is still propped up this morning with "t's" made out of wood. Even a diamond tip drill bit would not drill through the corrugated steel roof. The glue does not appear to be holding on the steel.

We are now at the point of giving up the idea of having a wine cellar.

 

[novalou]

Have most of the insulation up. Temp this morning was 75 degrees in the cellar.

Outside it was 64 at 6:30am so we setup 2 fans inside, one to suck out the warm air and one to blow in the cooler air.

It occurred to us this morning because there is no vent, the foam core could very well be trapping the warm air inside.

It has been one problem after another and many trips to Lowe's. First for different glue and more sheets of foam core. Then a diamond tip drill bit. The ceiling foam board is still propped up this morning with "t's" made out of wood. Even a diamond tip drill bit would not drill through the corrugated steel roof. The glue does not appear to be holding on the steel.

We are now at the point of giving up the idea of having a wine cellar.

Diamond tip drill bits are made to cut through concrete, not steel. A regular steel drill bit is what you need to drill through the corrugated steel.

Don't give up, you are almost there. Once you get your inside temperature stable, you'll be fine. Avoid opening the door when it is hot outside.

 

[Sammyk]

Thanks for the tip novalou!

We have been opening the door early in the morning and late at night and using two fans one in each direction with the door open to try to cool it down. But it is right back up to 75 degrees when we open late at night.

Maybe Dan was right, turn it into a smoke house.......

We are thinking it needs some kind of vent and maybe a small fan in the front to vent the heat out. There WAS supposed to be a vent! It will be a real bugger to drill a hole through the cement blocks. And of course the only place is on the front side which faces south. We do have a gray tarp draped over the RR ties to offer some shade in the heat of the day. The tarp covers about 10' and it is a little cooler under it. Anyone have any ideas about a vent and how to get it into the blocks? They were core filled with cement.

We had a mess to clean up as 11 bottles popped their corks. Co2, ones made before the all in one pump. They were still fizzing when we went in this morning.

 

[dessertmaker]

If you are going to do a vent to the exterior then you may as well add a portable AC unit. When working properly an AC unit will provide at least 14 degrees cooler air than what is going into the return. I realize some people on here have discouraged you from going this route but we had a large package unit from lowes placed in our training facility in south Louisiana and now all wear jackets to in service. It cools our uninsulated classroom in a metal gym that was 80-85 degrees in the summer before the unit was installed.

 

[Stressbaby]

I just read this entire thread. Sorry to hear about your troubles Sammy.

I don't know about cellars, my knowledge base on this sort of heat transfer stuff comes from experience with greenhouse foundations.

I may have missed it, but what part of the walls are you adding insulation to? It seems to me that if you are insulating the inside walls at any point below the line where the soil outside is cooler than the inside of your cellar, the point at which the temp differential favors movement of heat out of the cellar, then you are exacerbating your problem. Along the bottom, the soil temp on the other side of the wall is probably 50-55F and in this case favors heat transfer out of the cellar, which is what you are after. Same with the floor.

If done on the outside, then you might be able to leverage the thermal mass of the blocks and concrete to stabilize the temps a bit.

 

[Sammyk]

We have commercial greenhouses too so we do know how they work. We insulated the south wall inside and the ceiling. We have 2 fans in there right now because the outside temp is 64. It was 75 when we went in there this morning. Two fans running, one pulling hot air out and one drawing cooler air in, but it will only drop the temperature a couple of degrees. The next plan is to insulate the front, the south side. We are waiting on a carpenter to come by. It will take a lot of cuts to get it covered with core foam and then plywood.

The problem is coming from the top because he did not put the 3' of dirt on top as the plan called for. The side walls have 4' to 6' of dirt except at the top front where it is about 6 inches deep. The back of the top does have 3'.

We need to figure out a way to knock a hole in the front for into the cement blocks for ventilation and to put a fan to draw the heat out. The cellar is air tight so once the heat builds up there is no way for it to escape.

This is based on our greenhouse experience where we have huge fans blowing the heat out in the summer and then in the winter blowing the heat from the furnace to the back of the greenhouse. So we what to do to fix the problem but are not for sure just how to do it.

 

[Stressbaby]

So the insulation inside is going on the ceiling?