Hole is dug for our new wine cellar

[jswordy]

I store my wine in Rubbermaid totes in a dugout root cellar under my house that is entirely open at the top to the open crawlspace. The crawlspace vents are open in summer. And yet it never gets over 68 degrees there. Never. It hits 95-100 every summer here.

Just like the cellar you made, mine has a doorway leading outside, but my storm shelter type doorway is at a 45 degree angle and is faced with metal, so it actually should get hotter than yours. My doorway just closes by its weight, it is not insulated or sealed. Yet it is nice and cool in the root cellar.

Why? Because the rock-sided house sitting on top is a huge insulator that keeps the sun from beating down. What would fix your cellar? A huge insulator that keeps the sun from beating down. Make it foamboard layered on the OUTSIDE of the structure, make it a thicker layer of dirt, or even also make it a gazebo built on a raised platform directly above the cellar and much wider than the cellar itself - but an insulator will have to be made before it is fixed.

That's the essential problem.

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/efficient-earth-sheltered-homes

See 2.3 here, especially...

http://earthshelter.sustainablesources.com

 

[Sammyk]

ibglowin We talked to many air conditioning folks including one on line in CA. They were selling one Amazon I referenced a few pages back. I did place the order but cancelled it after talking to them. They all said the same thing the floor drain will not work for a vent. They also said they doubt we can get it from 75 to mid 60's.
We are not too worried about winter. If it is too cold it could be moved back to the closet upstairs where we kept the wine last winter. It is a huge walk in closet that stayed around 64 all winter long with the closet door closed, the heat register in the room closed and the bedroom door closed. That closet is above an unheated garage. Pain in the rear to move all that wine up the hill and 2 flights of stairs to an upstairs bedroom. We had to hire help to get it all down in the cellar to begin with as are not able to lift much with both of us having torn rotatory cuffs in opposite shoulders.

A gazebo place on top of the cellar would look like a sore thumb sticking out and very much out of place. with the surrounding area.

Now we wished we had gone with what we originally thought. Air condition that room but we thought long term it would be cheaper to have a wine cellar built.

WE have looked at so many options that we have run out of ideas.
The crawl space is not easy accessible, one has to crawl on hands and knees.

 

[seth8530]

Sammy, JS is correct, you need to come up with some way to insulate it. Insulation really is the key to this.. I feel like the best thing for you to do is bite the bullet and put more dirt on top of this guy.. Either that or some sort of insulating structure that goes over your celler.. Perhaps a place to store all your nice cool outdoor wine toys? I good AC solution might also work.. But it is an active system and passive really is the way to go whenever you can.

 

[jswordy]

Your original idea and concept was sound. But every single concern I raised if it were not planned out right at the beginning has happened. Sammy, there is only one true option that is going to fix it, and you know it and I know it, but you are not going to do it.

http://earthshelter.sustainablesources.com

2.3 Earth-covering

An earth-covered roof should be limited to no more than three feet of soil.

Twelve to twenty-four inches (adequate for plant growth ) is typically used. This is too shallow to effectively insulate the building and is the reason that roof insulation is required.

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/efficient-earth-sheltered-homes

INSULATION
Although insulation in an underground building does not need to be as thick as that in a conventional house, it is necessary to make an earthen house comfortable. Insulation is usually placed on the exterior of the house after applying the waterproofing material, so the heat generated, collected, and absorbed within the earth-sheltered envelope is retained inside the building's interior. If insulating outside the wall, a protective layer of board should be added to keep the insulation from contacting the earth.

 

[seth8530]

I do not think he needs to go as far as to un earth his whole cellar, but perhaps taking the dirt off the roof and insulating that really well and adding more dirt than it had before.

 

[Sammyk]

My Question IS

At 74 to 75 degrees how long will bottled wine last? That is providing it does not go higher in the inside.

We have run out of time. We will be in the 90's this week. There is not enough time to find another contractor that will come in and do the work in a timely manner of adding more RR ties and dirt. Everyone I talked to for the past 2 or 3 weeks did not want the job or was booked up for weeks.

On the side where the RR ties are where the sun is hitting, the west side temp is 107 on the ties. The east side where the RR ties is 92. On the roof where the the dirt is temp ranges from 88 where there is the most dirt to the front where where it is 92 and the least amount of dirt. Temps at 4pm EST.

We have pretty much come to the conclusion that if the wine spoils we will take him to court and sue for damages. It is not what we talked about. Does not contain major components; 3' of dirt on the top, a vent on the top. Most did not want to get involved in another contractors mess.

He told us that he did research and he did read the emails with the requirements as suggested here on the forum. I even gave him a link to this forum. I copied and pasted all suggestions here on the forum right from the start to emails to him before and during construction. We do not believe he did any research or read the emails or we would not be in this mess. I believe he lied when he said he did research or he has a MAJOR reading problem and did not understand what he read. Every research I did prior to construction required a minimum of 3' of dirt on top.

 

[Julie]

Sammyk, how old is your oldest wine? And how old to you expect your wines to get? The reason why I ask is, if you wines are going to be younger than 3 years I really do not believe 70 to 74 is going to hurt them.

 

[DaveL]

I agree 3ft of dirt is needed. However 10x10x3=300 cuft. /27=11cyx3800lbs yd=41,800 lbs of dirt. HMM Sammy how is the roof constructed? 6"concrete over steel decking? how deep are the ridges in the decking and is the 6" from the top of the steel or bottom? What is the reenforcing in the concrete? #4 or #5 rebar? spacing?
Or WWF or fibers?
Seth can you help here? I thinking it should be at least true 6" concrete with at least #4s at 12" oc, ea way to support the load unless it is 2 inch corragated metal decking of a heavy guage.
Point being removing the dirt on top and placing 6-10 inches of hardboard insulation then recovering with the dirt may be the best solution and less of an eyesore.
Sammy forget about a contractor, call a local concrete supplier ask there salesman for a local mexican place and finish contractors # Tell him you need 2 guys for 4 hours. should cost about $200 Have them remove the dirt from the top with shovels you supply. Should take them about 1 hour. Place the insulation. simply by laying it in place. Cover with dirt. Problem solved.
I used to keep a freezer the size of the bed of a nissan truck frozen with meet with a 20lb block of dry ice all day in the summer. Surely it will drop the temp 10 degrees once.

 

[DaveL]

By the way you owe me some peach wine. I type so slow its pathetic. lol

 

[seth8530]

Did I agree to send you a bottle of peach? Dave, I am not very comfortable about saying what is and what is not safe considering that I am in nuclear engineering and not structural/civil.. and also considering I do not know the details of the job, the type of concrete, steel, or the density of the soil in that areaa.

But, yea. depending on the water content of the soil the amount of weight on that room can easily vary by tens of thousands of lbs... just by me playing around with some numbers of soil density I found on the net. One soil density which I think might be a little high have me a result yielding 7076 PSI on top of your room with a 3 ft of soil on top. Which does not sound way too crazy to me. This number could vary quite bit depending on what the density of your soil is and how wet it is.

 

[Sammyk]

Ok there is corrugated steel sheeting with ridges that are 4 to 5 inches deep that are filled with concrete and the best of our recollection with the concrete in the ridges there is 8 to 10 inches total concrete on the roof. No rebar.

Julie the oldest is about 1.5 years, until we drink them or give them to family. We only drink one bottle a night if that because of medications we take.

I have to run. Farmers market in the morning and we have to be set up by 6am and we have an hour drive. I will check back tomorrow tonight.

 

[Sammyk]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000R48G5K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Do any of you think this will work?

 

[FABulousWines]

Hmm, it uses an endothermic process which I don't think will work as well during the high humidity we see here in late summer.

 

[ibglowin]

Thats a Swamp Cooler so no. Works great here in the desert southwest however where we have 10% humidity.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000R48G5K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Do any of you think this will work?

 

[pjd]

That has been asked and answered before. No! An evaporative cooler will not work in your climate.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

NO that will not work - like others already posted. It would have to be an air conditioning unit which would remove moisture in the air and make it cooler as well.

 

[Sammyk]

We started paining the RR ties until the rain started. The sand colored paint may not help with the heat but sure is an improvement from the creosote ties that stink!
We just got back from Lowe's with and air conditioner that we think we can vent down the bottom drain. Hopefully it will stop raining so we can get it set up.
Very similar to what ibglowin mentioned. It has a dehumidifier that you can open or close the plug to use or not use the dehumidifier.

 

[vacuumpumpman]

We started paining the RR ties until the rain started. The sand colored paint may not help with the heat but sure is an improvement from the creosote ties that stink!
We just got back from Lowe's with and air conditioner that we think we can vent down the bottom drain. Hopefully it will stop raining so we can get it set up.
Very similar to what ibglowin mentioned. It has a dehumidifier that you can open or close the plug to use or not use the dehumidifier.

By venting down the drain are you referring to the exhaust or the liquid or both ?
referring to post 89

 

[Sammyk]

Steve, heat will vent down the floor drain. Unit has a tray for the water to drain in.

 

[seth8530]

Umm cappin', not sure how well that one is gona work. I assume the floor drain drains down and out? Heat tends to go up and away.