High ph

Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum

Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

wineview

Still waiting.........
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
804
I have a Syrah that I racked out at 3 months and dosed with kmeta. The ph was 3.78. If I add LD Carlson’s Acid Blend (citric, tartaric and malic) will that bring the ph down? If so what dose would be helpful in a six gallon carboy. OR…..should I just leave it alone?

Thanks
 
If it tastes good I would leave well alone and just increase your SO2 regimen a bit to account for the higher pH. If it's flat and flabby you could acidify, but I would suggest straight tartaric acid rather than acid blend. The citric component can give it a candied note that I don't think is attractive in reds. And if you do acidify definitely do a bench test, ie measure pH in different samples with different amounts of acid added. The rule of thumb is 1g/L (tartaric) reduces pH by 0.1 unit, but it can vary quite a bit depending on the buffering capacity of your wine.

My 2021 pinot noir came out with exactly the same pH as your syrah - I would normally consider ~3.8 to be too high for a pinot, but it tasted great so I went with it. I bottled it in August and opened the first bottle last week - I think it's great. It still has nice acidity but lovely plush flavors on top, and good mouthfeel.
 
I'd ignore the pH and go with @BarrelMonkey's thought regarding taste. If it tastes good, it's fine. If it's flabby?

IMO it's a mistake to target pH or TA at this point -- there is no way to know what the wine will taste like if you target a specific number.

The amount of acid added to small amounts of wine is to tiny it's hard to get it right. If you have an extra gallon, experiment with it. Add a small amount of tartaric acid, stir well, and taste. Keep track of how much acid you add. When you think it's good, put the wine aside for a week to meld, then taste again. If it's good, then you're done. If it needs more acid, add small amounts. If it's too acidic, you can blend in more untouched wine to reduce the acidity

For the main batch, for each gallon I'd use 3/4 of the whatever amount you added to the test gallon. Incrementally add more acid until you are satisfied.

Take your time with acid additions, post-fermentation. You have plenty to time to do it right, so use that time. As I often say, it's easier to add more than to take some out.
 
If it tastes good I would leave well alone and just increase your SO2 regimen a bit to account for the higher pH. If it's flat and flabby you could acidify, but I would suggest straight tartaric acid rather than acid blend. The citric component can give it a candied note that I don't think is attractive in reds. And if you do acidify definitely do a bench test, ie measure pH in different samples with different amounts of acid added. The rule of thumb is 1g/L (tartaric) reduces pH by 0.1 unit, but it can vary quite a bit depending on the buffering capacity of your wine.

My 2021 pinot noir came out with exactly the same pH as your syrah - I would normally consider ~3.8 to be too high for a pinot, but it tasted great so I went with it. I bottled it in August and opened the first bottle last week - I think it's great. It still has nice acidity but lovely plush flavors on top, and good mouthfeel.
Good advice. Thank you. I will probably not touch it and I know I won’t be bottling until August 2023. Just to be clear, when you say increase SO2, my typical dose is 1/4 tsp per 5-6 gallons. If I use a rounded 1/4 tsp would that be enough?
 
...Add a small amount of tartaric acid, stir well, and taste. Keep track of how much acid you add. When you think it's good, put the wine aside for a week to meld, then taste again. If it's good, then you're done. If it needs more acid, add small amounts. If it's too acidic, you can blend in more untouched wine to reduce the acidity
The waiting is important. I set up a tartaric addition taste test with my aforementioned pinot noir and all of the acid additions - even the modest ones - stood out as intrusive when tasted the same day as the addition.
 
A wine with Ph of 3.8 (yeah I rounded up) Needs to have about 80 PPM of SO2 to be considered "protected" 1/4 tsp in 6 gallons give you about 50 ppm. I would err on the higher side and add at least a rounded tsp, but you are better off with 1/4 tsp + 1/8 tsp. Or even better, I would weigh it out and try to get about 3 grams for a 6 gallon container. In case anyone wonders where I am making these numbers up from, I have this sheet, that came from an unknown place, but I use it all the time.
 

Attachments

  • SO2 Chart_0001.pdf
    508.8 KB · Views: 6
Good advice. Thank you. I will probably not touch it and I know I won’t be bottling until August 2023. Just to be clear, when you say increase SO2, my typical dose is 1/4 tsp per 5-6 gallons. If I use a rounded 1/4 tsp would that be enough?
I like to measure SO2 and dose accordingly by weight, so I had to look it up. That 1/4 tsp works out to 45ppm in 5 gal, which is probably about right for pH 3.8. So I'd maybe keep the same dose but maybe dose a little more often than every 3 months? Maybe someone else can weigh in?
 
Last edited:
A wine with Ph of 3.8 (yeah I rounded up) Needs to have about 80 PPM of SO2 to be considered "protected" 1/4 tsp in 6 gallons give you about 50 ppm.
Based on that chart you posted, the 80ppm target is for 0.8ppm molecular SO2, which is appropriate for whites; however I think the typical target for reds is 0.5ppm molecular SO2 (for example see here). So the 1/4tsp per 5 gal sounds about right to me. I targeted 45ppm while my (pH3.8) wine was aging, then bumped it up to 50ppm for bottling.

ETA: Here is another useful reference for SO2 in high pH wines
 
I have a Syrah that I racked out at 3 months and dosed with kmeta. The ph was 3.78. If I add LD Carlson’s Acid Blend (citric, tartaric and malic) will that bring the ph down? If so what dose would be helpful in a six gallon carboy. OR…..should I just leave it alone?

Thanks
Do you know the TA? Has it gone through ML? How much SO2 have you added thus far, and at what stages? Adjusting acid post-ferment is risky, but certainly an option. I would forego any acid adjustments if it tastes balanced, I'd be more concerned with needing to add a higher dose of SO2 to reach an optimal working level of FSO2. Do you have the option of blending in a higher acid finished wine?
 
A wine with Ph of 3.8 (yeah I rounded up) Needs to have about 80 PPM of SO2 to be considered "protected" 1/4 tsp in 6 gallons give you about 50 ppm. I would err on the higher side and add at least a rounded tsp, but you are better off with 1/4 tsp + 1/8 tsp. Or even better, I would weigh it out and try to get about 3 grams for a 6 gallon container. In case anyone wonders where I am making these numbers up from, I have this sheet, that came from an unknown place, but I use it all the time.
Looking at your chart. The SO2 column is mg/L. We usually talk about additions in ppm. I'm not sure if mg/L is the same, is it? Also, how does the chart tell you to use 80 ppm for a 3.8 ph?
Thanks
 
Looking at your chart. The SO2 column is mg/L. We usually talk about additions in ppm. I'm not sure if mg/L is the same, is it? Also, how does the chart tell you to use 80 ppm for a 3.8 ph?
Thanks

Here is a slightly different chart that is basically the same information, but shows ppm, instead of something else. 3.8 ph 79 ppm required. 80 seems enough, more is probably better.

IMG_20221121_142722.jpg
 
We usually talk about additions in ppm. I'm not sure if mg/L is the same, is it?
They are the same thing.

Please note that ppm of free SO2 is not the same as the weight of Kmeta powder you need to add. To get the number of grams of Kmeta powder to add, divide the ppm free SO2 by 0.57. That gives mg/L. To get gallons, multiply by 3.7854. To get grams instead of mg, multiply by 1000 So for example, to add 50 ppm free SO2 to one U.S. gallon:
(50 / 0.57) * 3.7854 * 1000 = 0.332 g Kmeta powder.
 
They are the same thing.

Please note that ppm of free SO2 is not the same as the weight of Kmeta powder you need to add. To get the number of grams of Kmeta powder to add, divide the ppm free SO2 by 0.57. That gives mg/L. To get gallons, multiply by 3.7854. To get grams instead of mg, multiply by 1000 So for example, to add 50 ppm free SO2 to one U.S. gallon:
Let me take this one step further. If a wine needs 50 ppm to be protected is that at every racking (3 months)? Rack three to four times a year and that becomes 150-200 ppm. Correct?
 
Yes, at every racking. The free SO2 gets used up binding oxygen and other things, so it needs to be replenished when racking. Those who have the ability to measure free SO2 can measure the remaining amount, and add what is necessary to reach the target ppm, depending on the pH. But it works pretty well to assume that after 3-4 months the free SO2 is near zero and just add the target amount.
 
Yes, at every racking. The free SO2 gets used up binding oxygen and other things, so it needs to be replenished when racking. Those who have the ability to measure free SO2 can measure the remaining amount, and add what is necessary to reach the target ppm, depending on the pH. But it works pretty well to assume that after 3-4 months the free SO2 is near zero and just add the target amount.
There was a time early on in my winemaking when I didn’t understand the importance of SO2 and I would rack with no chemicals at all for a year. The wine turned out fine. Dumb luck?
 
Let me take this one step further. If a wine needs 50 ppm to be protected is that at every racking (3 months)? Rack three to four times a year and that becomes 150-200 ppm. Correct?
You need more than 50ppm for a 3.78pH wine if you want at least 25ppm FSO2 to protect the wine. Blindly adding 50ppm at each racking is ill advised; you could end up with 250 TSO2 and still have 0 FS02.
Have you added any SO2 at all thus far, and at what stages (crush, preferm, post-ML, racking)? Tossing around molecular SO2 vs PPM Kmeta vs 1/4 tspn for target goals without knowing your TS02 are all different calculations.
There was a time early on in my winemaking when I didn’t understand the importance of SO2 and I would rack with no chemicals at all for a year. The wine turned out fine. Dumb luck?
Wine can be quite resilient if left on healthy lees, in a sterile atmosphere. I've made syrah with zero SO2, whole cluster ferment, finished pH 4.01 and the wine was stable and stunning.
 
I would not. Look at it from this POV -- why would you change the flavor arbitrarily to change the amount of preservative added?
Maybe bench test to try a smaller quantity acid addition... may be a win-win... more stable wine and better tasting. Naturally, if the flavor goes on the wrong side of where you want to be, I wouldn't make the adjustment on the whole batch. I, personally (and I know this wine isn't meant for me) prefer a pH of 3.65 max. Without trying some things, you'll never know what you're missing.
 
Back
Top