going to college for winemaking?

[Manimal]

In theory, I agree that you can learn all you need to be a great winemaker through self-study. However, there are certain opportunities that being in college presents that would be difficult to achieve on your own. For example, being surrounded by professionals in your field of study along with other enthusiastic students who are passionate about winemaking; access to academic journals/texts which can be hard to find outside of an academic environment; co-op placements that allow you to get real-life work experience in the field; labs and facilities with professional equipment for wine testing and analysis... etc., etc.

We could argue the merits of formal education vs. self-study forever, however from a practical standpoint, if you plan on pursuing a career in winemaking, having a diploma/degree is going to go a long way to helping you get a job, and the contacts you make during the college experience can help you a lot as well.

 

[AlFulchino]

Manimal....i can sum up my reply in a few words and anymore would just be repeating myself...and i take the lead from your first sentence....

in theory, you are correct...and dont forget to add the price tag to that theory

 

[Manimal]

I suppose that if I were in the U.S. I might have more sympathy with your disdain for formal education since tuition costs are through the roof there. In Canada, academic institutions are subsidized through the government, so while our taxes are higher and the costs of everyday life are accordingly higher, deciding to go to college is not something that cannot pay for itself after a couple of years of employment in your chosen field. I've completed two university degrees and am currently working on a college diploma in winemaking/viticulture and I am doing o.k. financially without coming from a wealthy family, etc.

Also, remember that there are other costs than the financial ones... the cost of spending unnecessary years struggling to gain respect as a wine professional (working menial jobs in other fields in the meantime ) and the cost of fighting to get your foot in the door/move up in the wine industry because you don't have that piece of paper. Take a look at the job listings on winejobs.com or any other similar website.... what do you think the first qualification is for pretty well any winemaker or assistant winemaker position??

And let's be honest, right or wrong, no one looking at your resume is going to care how many of carboys of wine you've got going in your basement if you don't have that piece of paper.

 

[AlFulchino]

your question

"what do you think the first qualification is for pretty well any winemaker or assistant winemaker position??"

i take it that your answer is the diploma

i thought the answer would be and should be your wine and your abilities...
i supposes this could go on and on...i think its time the topic goes to bed...there are no winners nor losers...its all a matter of belief i guess

 

[grapeman]

Bringing this topic back up as I have another option for you that would probably be less expensive, but I don't know about eligibility requirements.

I spoke quite a bit the last couple days with the young gentleman in charge of this program in Geneva at the Finger Lakes Community College. They have their own vineyard and a brand new winery and lab. You get hands on experience and then may be placed in an internship at a participating winery. It is a two year program and sound like it would be a great place to get your feet wet, and maybe a bit purple. If you liked the area you probably could move on to Cornell and finish with that program.

http://www.flcc.edu/academics/viticulture/index.cfm

 

[mmadmikes1]

Damn I sat and read this whole post. I have had time to talk to people at many wineries because we are loaded hear in Washington. The amount of people I have talked to that have been to college is real low in this industry here. Another point, my brother works at IBM and is the only person there he knows who does not have a degree and he is the senior program for security. Even big companies will look past degrees for right person. Remember Bill Gates quit college to start Microsoft. I don't belittle higher education but it does seem to bottle everyone into thinking same way

 

[AlFulchino]

Mr Mike from Washington state.....i am with you! Not against higher ed..it has its place....just not NEARLY to the degree it is afforded under the current beauracracy.....and cultural mindset...but fear not ....its all collapsing under its own inefficiencies

 

[Midwest Vintner]

i can understand going to school for engineering or a something that is complicated, but wine isn't really that complicated. growing vines isn't that hard of concept to get either. it's something you can learn on your own. if you have carboys AND bring IN some good wine, do you think they'll look at that resume? i'd think so. lastly, everyone has their own wine style and i'd be willing to bet that a winemaker is looking for someone willing to conform to their style rather than be one to tell them how to do it. i'd be apt to equivalate winemaking to art than a mathematical science. i mean, how much school do you need to read a hydrometer, do pH and/or titration test, S02 test test and come up with some recipes (or even follow one)?

i am lucky though, my dad does have a horticulture, culinary and restaurant managment degree. that said, we aren't growing our product, but we are going to have a very nicely landscaped winery.

also, i've seen 2 local wineries hire people without any experience needed, per ad.

 

[grapeman]

The reason I brought up the community college degree is that it would be MUCH cheaper and affordable than a full university program. Because they are so hands on you get experience rather than quite so much theory. The degree will have less merit to it by those that want it, but it will do the average guy just fine. It establishes the basics that don't have the intuition of somebody like Al who is blessed with it.

 

[ibglowin]

And you think this is a good thing? Just curious.

As we fall further and further behind other countries in math and science and more and more jobs are lost overseas there will be fewer and fewer people left that have the discretionary income available to purchase things like a $30 bottle of "Cenare"........

We desperately need our school system to succeed, not "collapse under it's own inefficiencies".

...but fear not ....its all collapsing under its own inefficiencies

 

[AlFulchino]

looks a bit like a dig but best to look past it

"It establishes the basics that don't have the intuition of somebody like _____ who is blessed with it."
__________________
Rich, you are not wrong...but the statement about it establishing the basics is also not undyingly and forever correct either.....also, i will tell you Rich what i tell everyone....everyone has intuition (you Rich are blessed w it)...it is usually chased out of the human spirit that everyone posess's by pressures from society...truth be told Rich and i mean this from the bottom of my heart...i am dumber than most...i have a short attention span...probably a bit lazier than i should be too ...but when i was young i saw that most authorities only knew and did what other people told them to do and that they themselves were products of conditioning and easily fell into a layer of safety and comfort...so i figured i could find my way simply using common sense and be no worse for the wear

please remember that i am not against higher ed...take Mike for example.....higher educational resources can help him achieve what a landscaper doesn't need necessarily...now take that another step....has Mike or someone he works with ever felt restricted in their creativity? i am sure the answer has to be yes...he also achieves more in some instances because he is affiliated with a group...it bends both ways sometimes...the funny thing to is that at the end of the day...he plays happily with wine...where he can shine in his own way...that is cool...just a shame that he cant live that way all the time at work as well....not that he doesnt enjoy his work, i am sure he does...any way..points made



***********

Hi Mike...you asked and commented:
"And you think this is a good thing? Just curious.

As we fall further and further behind other countries in math and science and more and more jobs are lost overseas there will be fewer and fewer people left that have the discretionary income available to purchase things like a $30 bottle of "Cenare"........

We desperately need our school system to succeed, not "collapse under it's own inefficiencies".
*****
me:
it is a good thing for something to fail when it is largely ruining young people...incredible amounts of money have been thrown at it, the system, in the name of making it better...you and i are about the same age...you and i have witnessed the same arguments since we have been in our teens Mike about how to make the system better..always in the name of our children...in the name of the future...you and i heard the same debates in the 80's...in the 90's and this last eleven yrs.....so please someone...anyone tell me why we have fallen further behind other countries? the logic from the people who run and support and cry for our educational system have been given all they want and more...and still it is never enough ...a rising tide lifts all ships so why didn't their answers work? why is it that only certain people succeed? why? remember we are talking about the entire system....if a current broken system fails it will be analagous to the old soviet union collapsing under its own weight....that was a system that was uninspiring and cookie cutter...money was thrown at that system too but people were left disillusioned just like what our school system as a whole does to our children...exceptions? good teachers? yes on both counts....and that is the problem, they are exceptions....a short time ago a young teacher in NY related that her own union and superiors stifle the things she needs to do...she is not wrong

by the way.....Cenare at 30 dollars when factored for inflation for a guy from NM who grew up in the seventies is nothing more than a ten dollar bite

when you say we desperately need for the system to succeed...Mike that was said by people in the colonies back in the 1750's 60's and 70's because they were under the umbrella of the empire that never saw the sun set an empire that had the most enlightened embrace of 'natural law' to that point in history.....and that system too was thought also to need to succeed....but you see, rot rises to the top after the cream first rose and is left to sit out unattended

and that last few words is the case in a nutshell...and to make light of this serious matter and to poke fun at myself a little.....when you hear father al say :"
rot rises to the top after the cream first rose and is left to sit out unattended.." i would add the following...for those with ears to hear...hear...and for those w eyes to see....see

 

[Randoneur]

IMHO get as much education as possible and get multiple degrees if you can. Get work study when and where ever possible. Educational achievement is proof that you are focused on goals and can see your plans through to completion. You either have work ethic or you don't. Use that work ethic to get an education and the use it in your career.

 

[AlFulchino]

just saw your post before exiting the page....your statement only hold water w a sincere person....example of the rot rising to the top is the degree holder sitting in a white house in washington..he says the same things that you said..so we have to go past the easy words....i know you are sincere...but the rot has risen to the top....it is evident everywhere..Mike said.....we are behind in the world...so degrees are not evidence of anything

 

[AlFulchino]

Ernest and Julio Gallo

timing seems to be everything some time....went to turn the tv last night....on comes Biography on CNBC which occasionally has some good stuff....the subject of Ernest and Julio Gallo was the story for the evening....below is the trailer so that you can find the right show.....this topic came to mind when they discussed how Ernest learned how to make wine.....it will blow you away....if you are serious about going to school for winemaking or not.....or if you you are serious about what *you* can do for yourself, then watch this tv program...i am sure it will be repeated or is On Demand on cable...the timing for me to see this and share it is uncanny...i dont want people believing me because i believe what i know...i want you to see it for yourself..and this tv program is priceless in that regard

cant get the video to embed so here is the direct link

http://classic.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1436171248&play=1

http://classic.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1436171248&play=1

 

[Flem]

I only caught the last part of it but it was very enlightening. I hope to see the whole thing.

 

[AlFulchino]

Hi Flem...i agree it was very entertaining too..i don't want to spoil it by saying more...but after a huge family tragedy those boys did what they had to do....and this topic is apropos to it.

 

[Wade E]

Schooling is absolutely needed in life! The problem in this world is the fact that we(most people now a days) are just putting it time with no passion, dont follow the path that they are interested in so its all wasted, and the right people cant afford it. To the right person schooling can take you so much farther. Unfortunately for me I couldnt afford it nor could I stand getting past all the BS I had to take to get to Point B where I wanted to be. All the BS requisites needed to get into the class I wanted taking night school for 2 years pushed me to the point where I said screw it. I was going for what Rich does before he goes out into his vineyard to fulfill his real dream. I dont see my daughter going to college as she isnt good in school now matter what we do here, We've had tutors for her and everything. My son on the other hand is very strong in school but by the time he's ready for college there will be no way Ill be able to help him financially get there. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here but lets not say schooling isnt a good thing. Without it I highly doubt we would be on these computers or for that matter be able to read what the person in front of you posted. Personally I dont think its the schools fault, I think its ours in that we dont push our kids hard enough and they get away with so much now. WE cant even spank our kids anymore!

 

[Wade E]

Basically what I meant to say here before I got off subject here is that if your passionate about it Im asure you could leant something here that maybe you wouldnt digging in the dirt yourself. Learning hands on is always best but sometimes the errors made doing that can be lessoned quite a bit by learning from someone has already has knowledge in this area. I wouldnt go trying to take apart my transmission myself without at least someone there who has done it before.

 

[roblloyd]

I sort of agree with Wade, but I would try rebuilding a car without anyone else teaching me how. Books and internet can teach quite a bit. Would I open up a car repair place based on books? No. That's where schooling helps, or at least some type of degree/certificate comes in. I don't think you'd have customers banging your door down looking to be your 2nd car repair project.

Can you make it on your own? Of course, many have but isn't against the norm? Passion, desire, and taking control is what does it. Toss in a degree and you'll blow the doors off the normal person who wasn't sure what they want.
I was a computer science major and someone I was graduating with in the same computer classes was asking me about what computer to buy. Not sure what he's doing today but he had no passion for going above and beyond textbooks.

Teaching for the past 5 years has also shown me that some people need a place to get away and learn. Learning on your own is not easy with life going on all around you. Even worse if you're married, job & kids. No way will the average person have the discipline to focus on what they need.

I'm learning about wine when the house is quiet and everyone is asleep - even the dog. Luckily I don't need as much sleep as everyone else here.

 

[AlFulchino]

i am not sure that any poster here in this entire thread ever ruled out schools as having a place, so i am not sure why that concept gained any ground...there are cases as mentioned where a school is the only place that can gather certain resources...among them costly equipment and chemicals.....however...the results of our school system as a whole is plain for all..and..as Wade pointed out himself....often two yrs of wasted hoops and the many points that i have raised have poisoned the well (Wade's stories, made my case several times in his post)

money keeps getting poured in....the next generation of parents get blasted w propaganda from the school machine and fall into line and out comes what???...on and on....why repeat it all?....the Gallo Biography which i recommended everyone to watch said it all....and that will take any bias about the issue away if anyone has any thoughts concerning me or my views...the point of this topic was simple and that is what started this.......the Gallo father never taught his boys how to make wine....watch that program and see for yourself what happenned!

remember this topic's first question was about one thing...going to school for winemaking...it is good to bring that idea back full circle now

and in the end....if you want to go to school for winemaking...knock yourself out..who am i or anyone else to tell you know? i am no one certainly...but this is a discussion board...yes? the question was raised...it was a good exercise to flesh out