going to college for winemaking?

[Randoneur]

I would consider UC Davis and Cornell at the top, but do look at Virginia Tech. also. They are right up there too. If you go to the right school you will be able to get out in the field and get hands on experience that will put you ahead of most of the others.

 

[grapeman]

Here is a link to part of the Cornell program
http://grapesandwine.cals.cornell.edu/

 

[GerardVineyard]

Out in California, don't UC Davis and maybe Stanford have some kind of enology degree programs?

UC Davis does.

The online VESTA program I stated earlier, does have an internship portion to the program. You would intern at a winery or vineyard, depending on the program

 

[GerardVineyard]

I think I am going to start looking for oppurtunities for work at a winery somewhere here in michigan to start out with.... Better than working at taco bell....
and it would be nice application fodder when the time comes.

With Spring approaching, volunteer at a local vineyard to help with Spring pruning. This may help get your foot in the door when they do need to hire someone.

 

[ibglowin]

WSU in Washington State also has an excellent program. You could get your foot in the door of any mom and pop winery operation if you have the real world experience but a large corporate operation like many wineries in CA or WA State wouldn't take a second look at you without at least a certificate. That is just the way of the world.

 

[Racer]

VESTA can be a good fit for someone like me. I'm still trying to make a living and pay all the bills(at the young age of 51). Each class whether viticulture or enology requires x hours of practical application to get credit for the class besides the classroom time you need to attend online.My last viticulture class needed 32 hours of practical application, my beginning wine making class this winter needed only 8 hours at a winery.
If your just starting out(way younger then me) you'd be better off going to one of the bigger named universities.Name dropping(big school degree) still gets more attention then years of experience in the field gets you.

 

[AlFulchino]

"Name dropping(big school degree) still gets more attention then years of experience in the field gets you."

good wine and good grapes? what does that get you?

 

[ibglowin]

Al,

Not all of us are as blessed as you to have winemaking in our blood and vineyard soil under our finger nails. For the rest of us its make a batch of wine from either fresh grapes, a frozen pail or a kit, then wait 2 years to see how the "experiment" turned out. Rinse, Repeat.........

It works but takes 10-20 years to become an expert (of sorts) in the field.

Thus the rise of certificates and even degrees in Viniculture and Enology. Now they can't teach you everything you need to know to be able to make a great wine right out of the gates but its a starting point that hopefully cuts down on the time (trial and error and mistakes) that would arise otherwise.

There is absolutely no substitute for experience. Even if you have a piece of paper that says you can pass a test, 90% of the graduates of these programs have to intern (work for free) for a fair length of time before they get a paying gig. The 10% that get a paying job off the bat have REALLY good inside connections. They usually start out by steam cleaning and topping off barrels. Not all that glamourous. Alot of these kids in WA State start off working for a winery for a few years, get some "real world" experience under their belts then quit and try and make a go of it for themselves. Most usually don't get rich. Many do succeed and quite a few fail, even with that piece of paper.

You still have to have a good business plan, good grapes, a little bit of talent and a lot of luck!

 

[AlFulchino]

Mike, i hear you and you are one person that i respect VERY much and as i stated earlier ( more than once) i do not discount college at all, it has its place, i even went for a while ( only to learn that a person doesnt need it)...but i will stand up and say that 100% of our population has less faith in themselves than they should and that is their hindrance

you mentioned having wine making and land ....well before that when i was nineteen i started a landscape business and a great aunt asked me about it and said i couldnt do that because i had no background in it..i started one and built it up...five yrs later i sold that business...it still runs today 32 yrs after i started it.....at age 24 i bought a gas station ( convenience store type) ran into the same great aunt...who..guess what? said the same thing....ran several of them...twenty something yrs later sold that...also had another business that i ran for a decade that i knew nothing about...made some money lost some money...learned a lot along the way...bought the land along the way..it was not given to me...and 80% of my grapes are ones that i had never made wine from until last yr......80% ( i planted them in 07) no one taught me....it is about reading, talking with people, guaging where they are coming from, taking a chance and its instinct...instinct which you have as well..everyone does..and we sold 100% of the wine made w those previously unknown to me grapes in the first yr....how did that happen? not as inferred Mike.....why does it always have to be that people who have done well have to have it attributedm or inferred to some gift of money, heritage or land like a silver spoon?

what i am in effect saying is not that i am better than anyone i just have a faith that others choose to ignore even though it is free for the taking) ....if anyone takes that( silver spoon syndrome) as the meaning it is because the person only looked at the current surface.....i am saying that if any one of you reading had true faith in yourself then you could do more than i could or at least as much...and who is stopping you?

most people doubt themselves to a degree that acts as a self applied brake...
_____
editting this in...you said it takes 10-20 yrs to become an expert in the field regarding soils....who says??????who says you have to be an expert? or that it need take 10-20 yrs? this implies the very heritage that you decried me as having....

great subject matter and conversation Mike ( i mean that )

 

[Spacedonut]

Im loving this discussion that has started.
Your probably right about having everything i need to start on the path to working at and owning a winery and the only thing stopping me is a lack of self confidence and I feel that school is a way to build up that confidence.
but I also have a strong drive to succeed at everything i do and can't stand being told it wont work. Hell im the only reason my mom's vacum still works after 10 years of abuse. and she just wanted to throw it away.
Please keep up this great discusion I would love to hear about this from every angle possible

 

[roblloyd]

I teach Microsoft and Cisco certification classes (besides consulting) and while they aren't needed if you have experience, sometimes it's that piece of paper that gets you in the door and/or is required on the job application.

I've met some microsoft certified people that can't fix anything but they can pass a test.

I say get the certificate and get experience.

 

[cpfan]

I teach Microsoft and Cisco certification classes (besides consulting) and while they aren't needed if you have experience, sometimes it's that piece of paper that gets you in the door and/or is required on the job application.

I've met some microsoft certified people that can't fix anything but they can pass a test.

I say get the certificate and get experience.

Used to work for a place that wouldn't give a couple of computer techs without certificates the job "officially" or the pay raise but they were doing the job. When both left in a short time frame, they were in trouble because the hired (at more money) replacements with the certificates were no good.

Steve

 

[AlFulchino]

Steve, your post illustrates a key point that i was making...organizations dependent on a culture of paper certificates often lose out on ingenuity, independence and individual drive because of a dependency on the safety net that a document provides.....afterall they think... the document covers their butt in the blame game when that is a factor.

Sometimes hey cannot see the best tree from which to cut wood because they are told it must be wrapped in a paper certificate

 

[joea132]

I tend to agree that you don't need a degree to be successful. I did 3 semesters in college, incurred $30,000 in debt, and ended up dropping out and making more than my friends who finished the program with $120,000 in debt.

That being said, teaching yourself can sometimes be very difficult. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on and one thing I've noticed about wine making is that everybody has a different method for everything.

Long, cold fermentations or short, hot fermentations?
Natural or lab yeasts?
Sulfites or au natural?

What I've learned from studying is the basic process, the different options I have and how they will affect the outcome. I plan on experimenting and making educated guesses to figure out what suits my tastes best. After all, isn't that the most fun part of winemaking anyways? (My thoughts now are to apply scientific principles to a traditional proccess)

I am also looking into starting a winery as a retirement option, so I'm not just an alcoholic with a creative flair! (although that's still up for debate!) I am looking into college courses as a way to bolster my knowledge but the best information I've gotten so far has been from books and talking to the fine people that make up these forums.

 

[AlFulchino]

Joe i love your post...allow me to make some observations and comments:
_______
"I tend to agree that you don't need a degree to be successful. I did 3 semesters in college, incurred $30,000 in debt, and ended up dropping out and making more than my friends who finished the program with $120,000 in debt."

When i was 18 back in 77 i was accepted to a school that would have left me and my dad 45 k in debt.....i told him forget it..it made no sense...debt shackles you and you have to conform to what is taught so that you are not wasting money...

"That being said, teaching yourself can sometimes be very difficult. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on and one thing I've noticed about wine making is that everybody has a different method for everything.

Long, cold fermentations or short, hot fermentations?
Natural or lab yeasts?
Sulfites or au natural?"

Excellent points to raise....teaching yourself can be difficult...so isnt repaying 120 k as you mentioned...but teaching yourself is NOT impossible...lets look at your examples....long, cold fermentations or short? hot fermentations......did you go to school to ask these questions? NO! they arose out of natural evolution and curiousity based upon real life wondering...so teach yourself by two ways...search the internet and ask questions and experiment yourself and find what works for you.....case closed, mystery solved...120 k saved

"What I've learned from studying is the basic process, the different options I have and how they will affect the outcome. I plan on experimenting and making educated guesses to figure out what suits my tastes best. After all, isn't that the most fun part of winemaking anyways? (My thoughts now are to apply scientific principles to a traditional proccess)"

whether you learned basic process from studying or not you would have discovered the basic process on your own with or without college....natural curiousity, discovery and the like were not invented in school...they come from inside....in the end you say inst that the most fun anyway...exactly..and for the most part school strips the human spirit of this....just look at the school system a a whole...more money is thrown at it....more hours and more hours.....and for what?



"I am also looking into starting a winery as a retirement option, so I'm not just an alcoholic with a creative flair! (although that's still up for debate!) I am looking into college courses as a way to bolster my knowledge but the best information I've gotten so far has been from books and talking to the fine people that make up these forums."

look at the dichotomy in your own last paragraph.....you start out by towing the college line and in the end you admit the best stuff you have gotten is on your own...i rest my case

 

[joea132]

I think the point in a nutshell is that college is a very expensive research tool that is completely optional given a modest amount of motivation.

Very good points Al.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

i'm going to have to agree with AL here. winemaking is just as much an art form as it is a technical job. you can learn the technical stuff in reading a few books or researching the net. you want a job at a vineyard/winery, know your stuff and make a few successful batches. show up with a few bottles and some knowledge. bet any degree won't beat a great batch of wine! lol

a degree in the business world, and/or any kind of math/science kind of profession will open doors. when it comes to artistic abilities and such, it's not near as helpful. I have a multimedia degree and people want to see what you can DO, not just what you know. that said, i'm not the best. lol. i might have been better off teaching myself some of it (minus some of the animation, but who can get a job in that with an associates and not any experience?). some things can be self taught and experience in any form is usually better than a degree. it all depends on your motivation. we've had winery jobs open around my area. didn't need any experience. that said, i bet i would've been fired quick with a winery opening soon. lol! so i work machining until i can afford to quit.

 

[Rootedmotion]

I havent really had time to read all the posts but since i just graduated college and have job in the wine field i guess i will throw in my two cents.

For me I went to college to play college soccer. i started out as a business major in hopes to own my own business someday, maybe something along the lines of sports since i have played almost every sport under the sun at some point in time. Well I quickly found a passion for photography and started shooting all the college sporting events and started getting work published in newspapers. If i had not gone to school for soccer I would have joined the military and who knows where i would be today. Because of college i found my passions, photography and wine.

Yes, i have 80k worth of studen loan debt but I grew up as a person and my college expieriences have def contributed to where and who I am today. Not that the military wouldnt have, i just dont think that was the life fore me. (Nothing against the military, my father went to the Navel acadamy and spent 30 years in the Navy and i couldnt be more thankful for people who devote their life to protecting our freedom!)

I worked at the winery where i am at now as a summer job spraying grapes, pruning, hanging wire and other things that needed to be done in the vineyard. They offered me a full time job to quit school and stay with them as the head of the vineyard maintenance at 21 years old. Well i went back to school and 2 years later graduated with a degree in photojournalism and my own photography business. Spent 6 months applying to newspapers all across the country and decided i wanted out of the city i was living and wanted to move back home. Contacted the winery here and asked the winemaker if he had an opening for me.

I started here in may and was named the assistant winemaker in June at age 23. I did not know much about the winemaking process when i started but because i had to dive right in I feel my knowledge is well on its way to someday owning my own winery.

just my two cents

 

[AlFulchino]

my son went to school for baseball..so i know where you are coming from...school didn't give you your passion for photography...that was already in you waiting to come out.....whatever you are around exposed you to something.....you even evidence against the argument for college because college gave you 80 k in debt and you found yourself in wine making which has developed into a career via on the job exposure

if college gave you your interest in photography and wine then i would think we should be seeing 300 million passionate beer makers

your last paragraph says it all....i would only add one thing...you are motivated from the inside....

to me for the most part colleges are a collection point for a society that has wasted the energies and passions..natural passions of the vast majority of 13-18 year-olds



colleges and universities for the most part are vast beauracracies ( sp?) to house an industry of self perpetuating educators.....

universites and colleges are good for collection points like a library.....but not any more......the real university and college collection point in this point is history is the internet........anyone can learn anything on their own now and can do so without the trappings of culture and the slavery of debt

 

[Rootedmotion]

I am in no way disagreeing with the points you have made about universities and society today making it an importance to have a little piece of paper. And yes there was an artist in me that was dieing to come out and college just happened to let it out.

But the expieriences that I had in college have helped to make me who I am today and I feel that I would have never learned to use that motivation inside me if i had not been challenged and tested the way college courses do. The college system in america is very flawed and does not educate someone like it probably was designed to do, but it is the lifestyle and the expieriences of trying to cram 3 10 page papers into a week while playing a college sport or some other activity that really educates someone into using the potentional modivation they have inside them.