She’sgonnakillme
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SG of 1.032?? That's not right, it should have been around 1.090 - 1.10
Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits
- Thread starter SLM
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J, check your starting SG. What you stated seems really low.
I assume you have the lid of the fermenter snapped down and have an airlock in place. If this is correct, what is happening in the airlock. If it is an S-type, can you see activity in the "bubble?" If it is a 3 piece, can you see the inside cap that goes over the escape tube suspended or is it resting on the inside bottom of the airlock? If you are seeing evidence of positive pressure, i.e., gas coming out of the fermenter, you should be fine.
I assume you have the lid of the fermenter snapped down and have an airlock in place. If this is correct, what is happening in the airlock. If it is an S-type, can you see activity in the "bubble?" If it is a 3 piece, can you see the inside cap that goes over the escape tube suspended or is it resting on the inside bottom of the airlock? If you are seeing evidence of positive pressure, i.e., gas coming out of the fermenter, you should be fine.
Yep - your starting gravity is not right. Pics might help. Forte’s will give you a starting gravity of 1.105 (+/- .005). Drop your nutrient at day 3, keep stirring and punching the grapes down till you get to 1.000-ish, snap the lid and give it a full two weeks on the skins.
if you’re doing an EM, you’ll want your wine in a container with less headspace like a fermonster. Keep it under an airlock for the 4-6 additional weeks you’re doing your EM. Fight the urge to peak at it. Leave it sealed.
if you’re doing an EM, you’ll want your wine in a container with less headspace like a fermonster. Keep it under an airlock for the 4-6 additional weeks you’re doing your EM. Fight the urge to peak at it. Leave it sealed.
I’ve done several FWK styles and have done EM on all of them. Great way to go with them. I’m curious though, has anyone used pectic enzyme with them even with doing EM? I am imagining that you might get more wine using PE and not have to press as much, maybe even use the fridge method of compressing the lees. I just started a Zin, and I was thinking of trying it to see. I wasn’t sure if you should / need to use PE when doing EM.
I used scottzyme colorpro, which breaks down cells, and got excellent color. I believe any of the maceration enzymes will have a positive effect.
FWK's Packet A includes a pectic enzyme, so all of us have been using PE whether we do EM or not (so long as we add Packet A as directed).
I'm really glad you asked this question though, as I was looking for the post where a WMT member (@TCPT18) had written to Label Peelers to see exactly what was in the kits, and Matt P of label peelers responded to her email in detail. It was not in this mega-thread but in the thread which wound up asking all about whether LP ever stated exactly what their ingredients were. Mostly folks were wondering what was in the concentrate bag and skins bag (and the answers were just concentrated must, skins, and some sulfite). But it was really nice to know what was in packets A-D, plus even get specifics on the oak.
The thread was "Fwk verse winexpert" and all these answers on on page 4 of the 7 page thread which I have excerpted below with some added bolding: WineXpert - Fwk verse winexpert
RE MUST AND SKINS: She’sgonnakillme said:
Perfect, so to be clear, are you stating that the must bag contains no additional products, additives or stabilizers? It’s only 100% fruit? That’s the answer that I’m hoping to walk away with. I know the additional ingredients are provided, but we are only asking about the must specifically. Btw, thanks for the engagement here, it’s really appreciated as we all love your product!
Matteo Lahm: responded:
it’s 100% juice and skins with a small amount of sulfites to prevent spontaneous fermentation. As for sulfites, it is naturally occurring whether added or not. Yeast fermentation produces sulfites and in wines that do not contain it, it has to be removed.
RE ALL THE REST:
TCPT18:
posted on WMT sharing her exchange with Matt and his response regarding ingredients in FWK:
Good morning
I started 18 gallons each of super Tuscan and zinfandel kits. I am pleased to see nutrients and fermentation oak etc in the kits. I have a couple of questions as I like to know what's going into my wine. Hopefully you have the answers.
The oak chips and cubes. Medium toast French or something else?
Packet A..what is in this. I speculate Kmeta, and nutrient. Which nutrients? DAP, fermaid, fermax? Anything else?
Packet B...starter pack. I thought it might be go ferm but the texture is not right. What is in this packet?
Packet C... second nutrient. Again which nutrients? Anything else?
Packet D ...sorbate?
Ph 3.6ish TA 4.5 to start. See about right?
Can this product undergo MLF?
Thanks. I am looking forward to trying the finished product.
Best
Susan Hammond
Matt at Label Peelers responded:
Susan,
Thank you for your FWK order. The Chips are American Medium and the Cubes are French Medium. Packet A is Pectic Enzyme and Yeast Nutrient (DAP and Food Grade Urea) and Acid Blend. Packet B is Cane Sugar for Yeast Starter. Packet C is second dose of Yeast Nutrient. Packet D is Potassium Metabisulphite and Potassium Sorbate. Your right on with your PH and Acidity. It sounds like you definitely know what you are doing.
Unlike a normal pasteurized kit, you can in fact use MLF with these kits.
Have a great day!
—
Matt Pruszynski
@Gilmango thank you for finding this and reposting… this is super helpful information and does clear up my question. @Matteo_Lahm thank you for such transparency with you product.
This question feels like an intersection of a few roads to me, where we see how specific processes can play out in more than one way. Knowing such things can aid our intentionality about why we want to do something or not do something, which leads to the style and art of this craft. In my head, several threads just fused together with EM (cold soak vs. EM, Battonage and lees management, use of PE, and free-run / press differences). I have a feeling a few other threads may join the fray… LOL I think that was a proverbial light bulb…
This question feels like an intersection of a few roads to me, where we see how specific processes can play out in more than one way. Knowing such things can aid our intentionality about why we want to do something or not do something, which leads to the style and art of this craft. In my head, several threads just fused together with EM (cold soak vs. EM, Battonage and lees management, use of PE, and free-run / press differences). I have a feeling a few other threads may join the fray… LOL I think that was a proverbial light bulb…
three_jeeps
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Having trouble understanding instructions for FWK Forte Cab – advice sought please.
Day 0: Pitched yeast, laid lid on top of fermenter
Day 7: SG= 1.005, Sealed lid on fermenter, added airlock
Day 15: What to do?
Instructions say on day 15 rack to carboy BUT it is not clear if they are counting from when the yeast was pitched, OR when the fermenter was sealed.
Should I wait another ~ 7 days then rack (which means the fermenter would be sealed with an airlock for about 2 weeks? OR rack now?
I understand that EM is happening and a CO layer is forming between surface of the must and the lid - I just want to make sure that I don't rush the process.
Thanks
J
Day 0: Pitched yeast, laid lid on top of fermenter
Day 7: SG= 1.005, Sealed lid on fermenter, added airlock
Day 15: What to do?
Instructions say on day 15 rack to carboy BUT it is not clear if they are counting from when the yeast was pitched, OR when the fermenter was sealed.
Should I wait another ~ 7 days then rack (which means the fermenter would be sealed with an airlock for about 2 weeks? OR rack now?
I understand that EM is happening and a CO layer is forming between surface of the must and the lid - I just want to make sure that I don't rush the process.
Thanks
J
She’sgonnakillme
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It's 15 days from when you pitched the yeast. At that time you rack it, add stabilizers and degas.
Also, I would like you to know that wine is VERY forgiving! If you miss your timeline by a day, week month, 3 months maybe, it will probably be ok. Ok, there is an 'optimal' time, and you should try for that, but 'stuff happens'!
Note: I changed optimum to optimal, then looked online, either is usable!
Note: I changed optimum to optimal, then looked online, either is usable!
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As mentioned, you can press to secondary on day 15 from pitching yeast. Additionally, I emailed label peelers with a question about EM and they responded with the following...
"You can get benefits from EM though you get most of the tannins and aromas from the skins in the first two weeks. Typically we don't start to see any issues with resting on gross lees for several months."
So if this is true, you're probably fine racking on day 15 or waiting another week. As winemaker81 mentioned to me, the longer EM times might cause the finished product to take longer to mature and become what it might be at a sooner date. Essentially rough around the edges. This is not verbatim but more or less his thoughts on how extended EM might affect the finished product. I'm sure he would explain further if he sees this post.
Either way, you're probably fine. I'm going to be brewing a Tavola cab with 1 skin pack and plan to do a 4 to 5 week EM due to my work schedule. Fingers crossed that it doesn't take 5 years to turn into a drinkable wine. Lol
I have left it in the fermentor for up to 4 weeks from pitching. It’s a version of EM that has worked for me. I only do that if I am confident in the seal of the fermentor lid.
She’sgonnakillme
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I've gone up to 10 weeks from date of pitching yeast in my Spiedel fermenter, works great.
I have a 7.9 gal bucket with gasketed lid that I purchased from label peelers. It seems to seal good. Any idea if they seal well enough for extended EM? Now I'm second guessing myself.
That should work just fine for EM if the lid has a gasket and seals well and you don't open it up during the extended EM. In that case your 7.9 gal bucket is very similar to Spiedel fermenter or big mouth bubbler (reliable seal, visible pressure in air lock), and people do EMs all the time anywhere from 2 - 10 weeks (total time from yeast pitch).
She’sgonnakillme
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Gilmango may be right, but I personally don't trust the 7.9 buckets for EM, I lost a wine a while ago and I think the bucket was the reason. That's when I invested in a couple Speidels. With those I know it's safe.
I'll probably fill it with water, flip it on the lid and do a leak test on it before I run the batch. Not sure how I'll seal the airlock. Or maybe I can run a vacuum leak test using my AIO. Something to think about.
Edit: I decided to order a 30L spiedel to be on the safe side. I guess it will be my extended EM fermenter from now long. If it prevents a seal failure, the fermenter basically pays for itself. Plus, I need another large volume fermenter anyway.
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One of the effects of EM is tannin extraction, so it makes sense that a long EM will produce a more tannic wine, that will require longer aging. Several articles have included graphs of the extraction rates -- for color, the most occurs during the first 4 to 6 days (varies by study), and for tannin it's a week or more and tapers off in following weeks.
When reading these graphs it's critical to understand what they are showing. If it's the rate of extraction, then the graph is a bell curve, as the rate of extraction peaks, then tapers off. If it's amount of extraction, the line will continue to rise over time, but will eventually flatline.
Conversely to my idea of EM producing more tannic wines, one of the articles on WineMakerMag states that EM up to 3 weeks softens the tannins, but didn't explain why that happens. As with many of these articles, it says "what" but not "why". I guess I'm like that little kid that always wants to know why!
At this point I believe that a short EM (1 to 3 weeks) is beneficial, and have no idea if longer produces value.
It's certainly possible for the seal on a 7.9 gallon fermenter to be faulty, or to fail. It's necessary to firmly push all around the rim to ensure the seal is good as the tiniest crack will leak air. Plus the grommet or stopper used with the airlock needs to be good.
Escaping air is going to take the path of least resistance, so if there is a leak, an active fermentation won't produce bubbles in the airlock.
I cracked the lid for one of my ancient primaries last year. I have 6 and 7 gallon primaries that are at least 25 years old, and the plastic gets brittle. The bucket is still good, but the lid is useless.
A few years back I dropped a 16 gallon primary off my truck. This one was 30+ years old and spent at least a decade in my attic as I had no use for it. When it hit the pavement, it literally shattered. I'm probably going to buy another 7.9 gallon primary, and am considering a 10-12 gallon Brute (already have four 32 gallon brutes).
When Matteo and Matt did the year end tasting video of all the FWK reds and fruit wines they suggested more products would be coming. They have already brought reformulated white wines back. Now they introduced two new rose wines which they are calling "blush" wines. A Zinfandel and a Grenache, both in the Tavola series. This image is from the email they sent this morning but I cannot find them on the website just yet. It lists Whites and Blushes but only shows the whites. I strongly suspect that, like the whites, you have the option to back sweeten these to your taste, as is done with most "white zinfandels" but is not as common in wines marketed as roses:
To be completely transparent I do have pair of Big Mouth Bubblers that I use for EM when do double batches. I ferment in a 20 gal. Brute then move the wine along with the skins bags to the BMBs. But for single batches I leave it in the 7.9g bucket. Then again I’ve never lost a batch to a bucket so I may be tempting fate.
