Fermentation Question

Discussion in 'General Wine Making Forum' started by mike3049, Oct 13, 2018.

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  1. Oct 13, 2018 #1

    mike3049

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    Hi, first time on here. I'm still a rookie to wine making. I'm getting ready to rack from primary bucket to carboy, to finish the fermentation process. Do I mix the must in the bucket before I rack, to make sure I get all the yeast to finish the fermentation or do I not mix, leaveing the stuff on the bottom? Also, I don't add any potassium metabisulphite until fermentation is completely done, correct?

    Thanks
     
  2. Oct 13, 2018 #2

    meadmaker1

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    I try to rack as clear as possible each time.
    And kmeta after fermentation is complete.
    Welcome aboard.
     
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  3. Oct 14, 2018 #3

    dralarms

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    Correct, no need to try and get the yeast out of the primary. There’s enough left to finish the job
     
  4. Oct 14, 2018 #4

    BernardSmith

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    Hi Mike3049 - and welcome. I completely agree with what meadmaker1 and dralarms have said but I would add one caveat and that is if you are making wine from a kit I would follow the instructions to the letter. After you have made a few kits or you make wines using fruit that are not part of a kit and you have a good handle on what you are doing then you can deviate from the instructions that come with the kit. That said, I cannot really imagine any kit instructing you differently but it is possible, and the key point then is if you don't follow the instructions and something goes awry you will have no recourse from the manufacturer. All guarantees will have been dismissed. If you are making wine from a kit the instructions will tell you what you need to do. If you are making wine from self-assembled ingredients and are following a recipe of some kind then there is good reason to stir the wine during active fermentation but no good reason to stir the wine just before you intend to rack. You want to rack leaving behind as much of the particulates as possible. (and I say this as someone who has made only one kit in his life: I prefer to assemble my own ingredients).
     
  5. Oct 14, 2018 #5

    mike3049

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    Thank you guys for responding. I was watching this youtube video and it showed this person mixing up the bucket before racking into the carboy, also they sprayed paddle and splashed the inside of carboy with potassium metabisulphite without rinsing with water, would that kill any yeast that's left after racking?
     
  6. Oct 14, 2018 #6

    Scooter68

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    Watching You Tube videos is a risky business for many processes. If you watch enough you will find all sorts of practices for just about any thing like winemaking, tree cutting etc even something simple like changing the oil on your car. ANYONE can make a youtube video even - pardon me for being this blunt - A total idiot. There are probably some excellent videos out there but there are enough bad ones out there that you have to do some research too.
    Normally if some one suggest a WILD AND CRAZY NEW WAY to make wine... beware. Especially when getting started - stick to the tried and true until you get a little experience - there are enough challenges along the way to make this hobby much less than a 'routine' process.
     
  7. Oct 14, 2018 #7

    sour_grapes

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    No, it won't hurt them. The yeast used in winemaking are quite tolerant of sulphites. They make it themselves as a kind of chemical warfare against less hardy bugs.
     
  8. Oct 14, 2018 #8

    BernardSmith

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    And the problem with washing anything with tap water after sanitizing using K-meta is that you now cover the sanitized equipment and tools with a liquid (water) that is full of bacteria so you have essentially neutralized whatever you have done while sanitizing. The bacteria, of course, are not pathogenic but they can spoil your fruit and add off flavors... so if you sanitize do not wash off the K-meta with tap water.
     
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  9. Oct 14, 2018 #9

    dralarms

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    I see this more times than you would think.
     
  10. Oct 15, 2018 #10

    mike3049

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    that's a great point. the one book I was reading said, After sanitizing, rinse with cold water. as long as the potassium metabi doesn't hurt the yeast, there is no need to rinse with water after sanitizing.

    thanks
     
  11. Oct 15, 2018 #11

    Scooter68

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    Mike3049 Sigh - Yes, I've run into similar comments on line as well. Supposed "Authoritative sources" gave guidance that conflicted with guidance I'd receive from other sites, and this forum.

    Bottom line do a lot of research - Even well meaning folks can give bad guidance either because the make a mistake(misunderstand) or they learned the wrong way and have been just plain lucky so far.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  12. Oct 15, 2018 #12

    Stressbaby

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    Not a believer in this, not at all.

    At this time in 2018, the standard of care for wound repair is to rinse the wound under tap water prior to closure. It is not possible to reconcile this practice with the idea that the water is "full of bacteria."

    KMS has contact time of 5-15 minutes depending on the cited source. If you think you have eliminated the bacteria by spraying KMS solution and waiting 60 seconds I think you are kidding yourself. If you spray, then rinse, it seems far more likely that the mechanical effect of the rinse will remove more bacteria than the KMS spray. Of the bacteria that remain, they are far more likely to have been there in the first place than to have been introduced by the tap water.

    One day I'm going to buy a bunch of agar plates and test this.

    Edited to say I now have 20 soy agar plates in my Amazon cart.
     
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  13. Oct 15, 2018 #13

    BernardSmith

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    Thanks Stressbaby. I am a great believer in the scientific method and in the use of data in support of any beliefs we have and apply. If the evidence is that washing with water after soaking in K-Meta (not sure what a light spray over some of the surface might do) is not counter-indicated then we should not be opposed to adopting that practice. If you are in a position to test hypothesis that washing with water after sanitizing does not increase the bacterial count then I am more than comfortable to adopt whatever the data point to. But for the record I know that in New York City about 14 years ago there was a significant outcry when some Orthodox Jews discovered that their tap water contained eye visible plankton that the city said it was not capable of being filtered - and was in fact not required to filter at source - but that anyway, these creatures, many microscopic but some as long as 1.5 mm were benign (although if visible were unacceptable to the dietary customs and laws that Orthodox Jews follow) - so the absolute "purity" of the water may depend on the locale.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/07/nyregion/the-waters-fine-but-is-it-kosher.html
     
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  14. Oct 15, 2018 #14

    Stressbaby

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    Watch the Winemaking Science section for a thread on the experimental design.
     
  15. Oct 16, 2018 #15

    BernardSmith

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    with bated breath... :b
     
  16. Dec 4, 2018 #16

    BernardSmith

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    If you expose your wines to air (open fermentation without any airlock in the secondary) then you run the risk of oxidizing your wine and while some wines are drinkable when oxidized most wines are just about undrinkable.
    If there are acetobacter around (carried by fruit flies), then alcohol exposed to air will be transformed to vinegar, so that's another risk
    Note, though, that Murphy's Law says that however small these risks may be (and they are not very small) if you depend on them being small they will become dead certainties.
    The other thing is that thoughtlessly allowing your wines to sit on lees (the sediment) can result in off flavors. This is not such a big risk if you allow the wine to sit on lees for a few weeks, but depending on the yeast you pitched allowing your wine to rest on dead yeast cells that will be disintegrating and disgorging the contents of their cells you will be inviting all kinds of off flavors to be infused.
     
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  17. Dec 4, 2018 #17

    1d10t

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    Your body can actively make antibodies and has other defense and flushing mechanism. Also, first aid is a triage system and clean potable water is probably a safe generic bet. Do you think they will use that in a medical facility?

    Most wines are not made from human materials, at least to my knowledge. Botulism is all over the place but doesn't affect us for the most part because it is anaerobic. Stick it in a can, that is a closed system, and now it can grow and hurt us. Take your plates and test your tap water and if something grows then ask yourself if you want that growing in your wine.

    Edit: That said, wine making freaks me out a little compared to beer making where everything post boil is sanitized. Water is used in kits with no recommendation to boil prior to adding it to the juice. They don't even seem to suggest it for top off water.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  18. Dec 4, 2018 #18

    Stressbaby

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    It is the standard of care in medical facilities.
     
  19. Dec 4, 2018 #19

    1d10t

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    I thought they used a sterile saline solution but I'll take your word for it. Is that the LAST thing they use on a wound prior to closure?

    But, this whole thing seems silly. Why rinse the k-meta when you are adding it directly to the wine? What do you hope to gain?
     
  20. Dec 4, 2018 #20

    Stressbaby

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    We use the tap water rinse PRIOR to closure. Link. Link. There are other things done prior to closure like hemostasis, assessment of neurovascular integrity, anesthesia, and so forth. Whether the irrigation is done before or after those things depends on the circumstances. (edited because I misread your question the first time)

    I'm not positing superiority. Mainly I'm positing non-inferiority. I'm contesting the notion that by rinsing you are contaminating your equipment. But further, tap water is effective for wounds because of the tremendous volume of irrigation fluid which can be used. With a wound, you might use a liter of NS and have a huge mess. With tap water, you can do it over the sink and use a couple of gallons. The pathogens are mechanically dislodged more effectively based on the volume of water used. The possibility that the same mechanism would work on wine equipment should not be discounted.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018

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