Fermentation Question

Discussion in 'General Wine Making Forum' started by mike3049, Oct 13, 2018.

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  1. Dec 5, 2018 at 12:31 AM #21

    1d10t

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    I don't want to get into a back and forth but we are talking about rinsing off "God knows what and how much" when it comes to a flesh wound vs rinsing off k-meta sanitizing solution from a piece of equipment. (I think that was the initial premise) Why rinse off the same sanitizer that you are scooping into the wine? If you want to stop sanitizing and start rinsing with water and relying on the k-meta that you put directly into the wine I guess that would be your choice. To me sanitizing isn't that much more work.

    And one caveat about that study. Are we to assume every well, cistern, creek, reservoir, etc. across the world meet the same standards as that at Stanford University?
     
  2. Dec 5, 2018 at 1:28 AM #22

    jgmillr1

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    Beer has a higher pH than wine and sulfites are quite effective in wine when dosed appropriately, whereas sulfites are ineffective in beer.
     
  3. Dec 5, 2018 at 3:06 AM #23

    Stressbaby

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    Holy crap, you like your straw men.
    Nobody said anything about not sanitizing.
    Nobody said anything about cisterns or creeks or wells.
    Go to the experiment thread, there is no arm in any of the experiments that involves rinsing without using sanitizer.
    Stop mis-characterizing my posts.
     
  4. Dec 5, 2018 at 5:04 AM #24

    1d10t

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    I don't believe I am. Let's not stray for the original context. Rinsing off sanitizer with an unsanitary solution. A sanitizer that you will in turn put in your wine anyhow. Your contention is that if it comes from a tap, it must be OK. You don't take into account differing tap waters. You may be bailed out by the fact you are still adding K-meta in the end. Again, what's the point of rinsing it out in the first place with an unsanitary solution? Seriously?



    BernardSmith said: ↑

    And the problem with washing anything with tap water after sanitizing using K-meta is that you now cover the sanitized equipment and tools with a liquid (water) that is full of bacteria so you have essentially neutralized whatever you have done while sanitizing. The bacteria, of course, are not pathogenic but they can spoil your fruit and add off flavors... so if you sanitize do not wash off the K-meta with tap water.

    dralarms said: ↑

    I see this more times than you would think.

    Not a believer in this, not at all.

    At this time in 2018, the standard of care for wound repair is to rinse the wound under tap water prior to closure. It is not possible to reconcile this practice with the idea that the water is "full of bacteria."

    KMS has contact time of 5-15 minutes depending on the cited source. If you think you have eliminated the bacteria by spraying KMS solution and waiting 60 seconds I think you are kidding yourself. If you spray, then rinse, it seems far more likely that the mechanical effect of the rinse will remove more bacteria than the KMS spray. Of the bacteria that remain, they are far more likely to have been there in the first place than to have been introduced by the tap water.

    One day I'm going to buy a bunch of agar plates and test this.

    Edited to say I now have 20 soy agar plates in my Amazon cart.
     
  5. Dec 5, 2018 at 5:54 AM #25

    G259

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    K-Meta kills yeast, thus your fermentation (or limiting it).
     
  6. Dec 5, 2018 at 12:26 PM #26

    Stressbaby

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    @1d10t , LOL you did it again. Straw man fallacy.

    You characterize tap water as "unsanitary solution." Unsanitary - unclean, filthy, germ-ridden, polluted, unsafe. Do you know what typical colony counts for tap water are in the US? I'll help: Here's a study of the water from Cleveland. On the order of 1 CFU/ml. That's 1 bug in an ml of tap water. You're lucky if you can get 1ml of water to cling to a racking cane after rinsing. Bottled water fared far worse by the way, so don't us bottled water thinking it's better than what comes from your tap.

    I never said it "must be OK." I theorize that it is OK, that the mechanical action of rinsing after sanitizing introduces no more bacteria than it removes, and I'm willing to test it.
     
  7. Dec 5, 2018 at 1:29 PM #27

    1d10t

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    Number one of definition is "not sanitary". Either something is sanitized or not. I'll grant we can find dueling definitions and the one you site is probably the most popularly accepted. In cases other than law that usually prevails so I'll concede the point. That's the nature of language.

    You can make the case that some tap water is sanitized by processing plants. Certainly not all tap water will fall into this category. That is the main problem with the study you sited and your experiment. You are testing one source only and making it sound as if the results should be extrapolated to other untested sources. Are you comfortable making the assertion on a site where there will be so many different water sources? Just because it doesn't hurt your wine are you ready to pass that to others whose water you haven't tested? Are you in a position to test all of the things your find growing on your plates and assess them for wine spoilage potential?

    You are basically testing the effectiveness of sanitizer. This one is easy. You plate your sanitizer and then you plate your water. You are replacing one with the other. If effect, you are testing whether k-meta works at all. Again the question that doesn't get answered. Why rinse the k-meta in the first place if you are just going to turn around and then add it to the wine? Just because you are adding enough to the wine to work doesn't mean it makes any sense to use a potentially harmful plain water rinse.
     
  8. Dec 6, 2018 at 1:10 PM #28

    bstnh1

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    You wash the bottles, equipment, etc., sanitize with K-meta, and then rinse with tap water??? Why bother sanitizing with K-meta then? If the tap water washes all contaminants off, then all we would have to do is wash everything with tap water and be done, right? I don't think so!
     
  9. Dec 6, 2018 at 3:24 PM #29

    Scooter68

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    FOOD FIGHT !

    Really folks - There are some basic recommended practices for making wine in sanitary conditions. Folks ignore them all the time and get away with it I imagine.

    Beer making requires different processes than wine making due to a variety of reasons.

    Not all of us have a deep background in chemistry, biology, and wine making. Some folks have a deep well of common sense, others, as we see from time to time on this forum are a bit lacking.

    Bottom line is the best routine is to read, figure out what process you think is best for you and follow it. Just be sure it isn't from some Youtube "Authority" - find a book and when in doubt compare different books.

    As to no-rinse sanitizers, either you believe and trust that or you don't - personally I use Star-san as my no rinse sanitizer and I'm happy that way. IF you use something and it leaves a film or residue I can understand concern so it would appear that a little research might be worthwhile to figure out what is in that film or residue.

    I will make one last comment - If tap water isn't safe to clean my equipment or safe enough to add directly to my wine, then why would I use it for a rinse after using a sanitizer solution on my equipment or add it directly to my wine? Keep in mind that the water that leaves your municipal water supplier is passed through miles pipe of various ages and types then into your home pipes. In many cities 'boil orders' happen from time to time as well as the occasional undetected issues. Boil orders normally are issued once an issue has already occurred and you may already have that 'tainted' water in your house.

    So IF the thought of contaminating your wine or tainting it bothers you - there are many options out there. Pick one and go with it.

     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 8:09 PM
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  10. Dec 6, 2018 at 4:50 PM #30

    bstnh1

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    Next time I have a cut on my hand I'll stick with dousing it with hydrogen peroxide. And next time I make wine, I'll use bottled water and stick with sanitizing with K-meta and let everything drip dry.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Dec 6, 2018 at 7:13 PM #31

    cmason1957

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    I think many folks are reading more into this than is intended. I don't think what is being said is - the correct way to sanitize is to spritz with KMeta, then wash it off. I think what is being said is maybe it isn't as bad as it might first sound. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. But, if you don't want the added KMeta, maybe washing it off isn't the end of the world.

    He certainly isn't saying use dirty water for the rinse and anyone who proclaims that is just looking for reasons to pick at it. take what you want from it, leave the rest. I go with the if you can drink the water, you can make wine with it philosophy myself.
     
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  12. Dec 6, 2018 at 7:53 PM #32

    bstnh1

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    Municipal water can be high in iron and other elements; it may contain chlorine and/or fluorides along with other chemicals or their byproducts used in treatment. If you have a water softener, you have sodium in your water which will affect the taste of your wine. Distilled water lacks minerals needed for fermentation.
     
  13. Dec 7, 2018 at 2:30 AM #33

    Stressbaby

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    Yes. Thank you.

    For what it's worth, here is none other than Tim Vandergrift instructing you to rinse the KMS sanitizer with - wait for it - tap water.

    BTW, if you are trying to avoid pathogens @bstnh1, bottled water is probably not what you want to use. Link.

     
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  14. Dec 7, 2018 at 2:49 AM #34

    Scooter68

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    Most tap water is probably fine unless you have reason to believe otherwise (Certain cities with known issues perhaps) I know that if I try to mix up a batch of StarSan with our tap water, it is either cloudy from the start or clouds up within a week. When I use distilled water no problem.
    Well water is as good as your source but if you don't know how good that source is, most counties provide free testing to help easy your mind if that helps.

    So many folks become obsessed with certain practices I'd say pick one and until you have reason to believe what you're doing is a source of problems don't look back.

    Where I live we've had a 'boil water order" a couple of times in the past 10-15 years so my moderate concern isn't totally unwarranted. I typically buy water from the vending machine at Walmart where they take City water (Different city) and hit it with UV before dispensing. Not perfect solution but at $.39 a gallon, not a big deal.
     
  15. Dec 7, 2018 at 4:46 AM #35

    1d10t

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    The insistence that 'tap water' is one specific well defined substance is a little mind boggling. Just google up tap water hazards.

    Rare brain-eating amoebas killed Seattle woman who rinsed her sinuses with tap water. Doctor warns this could happen again.

    Can someone explain how adding an unnecessary step that is potentially harmful is not a fools errand? This keeps getting asked but I've seen no answers.

    I don't care who does it. Some people smoke and never get lung cancer. That does't make it a safe and acceptable practice for everyone. If you are adding k-meta to your wine directly of what possible benefit is there rinsing it off that outweighs the risks. Getting away with it is not the issue. If your wine goes bad 3 years down the road can you then say with 100% certainty it wasn't this sanitation step?
     
  16. Dec 7, 2018 at 5:12 AM #36

    stickman

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    Smoking and lung cancer? Really? We just went off the deep end.....
     
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  17. Dec 7, 2018 at 11:21 AM #37

    bstnh1

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  18. Dec 7, 2018 at 11:43 AM #38

    bstnh1

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    Tim Vandergrift in an article in 2000: <https://www.baderbrewing.com/content/simplifying-cleaning-and-sanitizing-home-winemakers> "In stronger doses potassium bisulfite works well to sanitize your equipment, with no negative consequences. Make a solution of 8 teaspoons dry measure of potassium metabisulfite added to 1 gallon (4 liters) of water, and then rinse your equipment in this solution for about 5 minutes to sanitize, and let drip dry." There's also a video out there somewhere where Tim says he has never rinsed K-meta sanitizing.

    I use bottled spring water for everything other than washing and sanitize with K-meta and do not rise after. Never had a problem. What water anyone uses to make wine and wash equipment and what they use to sanitize equipment and bottles and whether or not they rinse after sanitizing are personal decisions each winemaker has to make.
     
  19. Dec 7, 2018 at 12:29 PM #39

    Stressbaby

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    Scooter, I think this is a pH issue. Try adding a bit of citric (like you would with KMS).
     
  20. Dec 7, 2018 at 12:29 PM #40

    Johnd

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    Been deep here for a while, nice view from my recliner though........
     
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